eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??

[Andreas Brekken]

Originally Posted by sidney

Post No.30, Item No.2: The following information was provided by Ralph Zimmer from the literature quoted in the assessment, as follows: "According to JFV vol 6-1, p. 158, Stab/JG27 had Bf109F-2 in addition to Bf109Es from June 1941 onwards. From the end of August or the beginning of September the Stab had Bf109F-4 too (JFV 9-1, p. 361). In the Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer chronicle on Stab and I./JG27 and in JFV vol.6-1 there are losses of Bf109Fs documented on 18.June 1941 (Bf109F-2 WNr. 8198) and 13. September 1941 (Bf109F-2, WNr.9694). So Maj. Woldenga would not need to bring an own Bf109F nor to use special relations to aquire one - Stab/JG27 already had some on strength."

No - they did not have Bf 109F-4s at strength - at best they had some on loan from another unit.

I respect the work that Dr. Prien has done immensely - the books are tremendous resources - but one should never use books as proof as you do now - simply because they can contain errors and typos. Jochen Prien is the first to acknowledge that when you have a source material as large as his - and as prone for errors as the sources itself can be (in my work with my loss database I have entered over 14700 corrections to the loss records - and that is without the entire 1944 and large portions of 1945 where the records are not to be found and have probably been destroyed) any publication however well researched and proofread can contain errors.

First - your reference to the loss of WNr 8198 - this aircraft is listed as being lost 60% by Stab/JG 27 on June 18th 1941 - but it is also noted as lost 100% on June 25th 1941 with II./JG 52 - one of these must be erronous. II./JG 52 had Bf 109F's on strength according to their strength returns at that time - Stab/JG 27 did not - I know which loss I have marked as dubious with regards to validity.

Second - your reference to the loss of WNr 9694 - this aircraft is reported as damaged 10% by Stab/JG 27 on September 13th 1941, but also listed as lost as an E-7 by 5./JG 52 on September 27th 1941.

So your evidence is not as rock solid as you might believe - and as all of these losses are Sachschaden only - no personnel injured or otherwise harmed - one can not use NVMs to try to conclude with regards to which record is correct and which one is wrong.

Just to be sure that our team has not made an error when entering these in the database I just checked the records - all the WNr are clearly correctly entered - and we thus have real duplicate loss records from two different units for these WNr with just a few days apart.

I agree with ouidjat on this one - until further proof - preferably from primary sources - there is no proof yet that Stab/JG 27 had Bf 109Fs on strength prior to their conversion at Döberitz.

Regards,
Andreas B