eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Strength returns for Stab JG 27 reveals the following:

21.06.2914 4/4 Bf 109E
28.06.1941 3/1 Bf 109E
05.07.1941 3/2 Bf 109E
12.07.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
19.07.1941 4/3 Bf 109E
26.07.1941 4/2 Bf 109E
02.08.1941 4/3 Bf 109E
09.08.1941 4/3 Bf 109E
16.08.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
23.08.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
30.08.1941 0/0 Bf 109E
06.09.1941 2/2 Bf 109E
13.09.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
20.09.1941 3/3 Bf 109E
27.09.1941 3/2 Bf 109E
04.10.1941 4/3 Bf 109
11.10.1941 4/3 Bf 109
18.10.1941 4/0 Bf 109F-4/trop comment: Umrüstung auf F4 trop in Döberitz
25.10.1941 4/0 Bf 109F-4/trop comment: Umrüstung in Döberitz
01.11.1941 4/0 Bf 109F-4/trop comment: Umrüstung auf F4 trop in Döberitz

During the period up until 11.10.1941 they were defined as subordinated to OST, no subordination for 18.10.1941 and 25.10.1941 - and the X (indicating X Fliegerkorps) from 01.11.1941.

So - I start to doubt that this is a Stab/JG 27 bird at all.

But there is of course the possibility that the Kommodore (which would have been Major Bernhard Woldenga) snatched himself a Bf 109F out of order... or even brought his 'personal' Bf 109F into the unit when he had to take over for Schellmann - anyone know from the top of their head which unit Woldenga was in before he returned to Stab/JG 27 - so I do not have to locate it in my papers?

You have this loss:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=160348

which could indicate that this happened.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, again.

Seems Woldenga came from the position as Kommodore of JG 77, but the Stab/JG 77 also flew Bf 109E apparently...

But he still could have used his connections I guess... or we are looking at a bird from the 50 - series (JG 51, JG 52 etc) - with a personal emblem resembling the one of Stab/JG 27

Thoughts, Göran??

Regards,
Andreas B

[Merlin]

This is the Bf 109F-4 WNr. 8419 from Stab/JG 52. The plane was crash landed by Ofw. Karl Munz from Stab I./JG 52 near Grodino on 8.Jan.42 - a similar photo with the same buildings in the background was published in Luftwaffe im Focus some time ago.

The emblem below the cabin is similar to that of III./JG 27, it’s not the Geschwader emblem of JG 27. This seems to be a personal add by Maj. Wilhelm Lessmann, who led JG 52 from 10.41 to 06.42. The emblem should remind him of his first command as Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 131 during 1937/38. This unit became later I./JG 130, I./JG 1 and finally III./JG 27.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hello, Merlin!

Nicely spotted. I hope Axel will forgive me for adding a scan from the Luftwaffe im Focus issue 4 - showing this aircraft - and regard is as publicity for his excellent publication. If you are not a subscriber to it - start a subscription asap!

Case closed.

Regards,
Andreas B

[ouidjat]

Marvellous,

Same picture here:
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=5050
source being http://www.me109.info/display-quelle.php?id=177

Not only LiF ... Axel will say nothing! Case closed effectively.

Thanks guys.

Regards, Franck.

[sidney]

I understand that the case is now considered to be all but closed. I would still like to add few notes if I may.

According to the map enclosed to Prien, Stemmer and others JFV der Deutschen LW, Part 6/I I believe, Stab/JG 52 and I./JG 52 were based at Rusa (that is in the proximity of the main Minsk – Moscow highway) between 4.11.1941 and 14.12.1941. Following the Red Army counter offensive of 5.12.1941, the aforementioned units left for Dugino (again, not far away from the highway), where they remained between 14.12.1941 and 20.01.1941

What happened during the aforementioned Red Army counter offensive is that the German Army fell back at places 150 – 200 km, which shortened their communication and supply lines, so it eventually managed to contain the counter offensive.

Now, the account of event states that on 8 January 1942 Ofw. Karl Munz of Stab I./JG52, while piloting the apparently Kommodore’s, Maj Wilhelm Lessmann, Bf 109 F-4, W.Nr. 8149 coded “Double Chevron and Bars”, was hit by the small calibre AA fire, which obliged him to make belly-landing at Grodino. Although wounded, he then managed to reach the German lines.

Now, according to the above Grodino is then supposed to be somewhere in the central Russia. The only reference on Grodino that I found was in John Weal’s book He 111 Kampfgeschwader on the Russian Front, where it reads…”… at the end of January (i.e., 1942) I./KG 4 was switched back to the Volkhov area (i.e., northern Russia) to support the German drive aimed at pinching off the Soviet offensive. One particularly successful mission was flown on the last day of the month, when its He 111s bombed the township of Grodino…” Needless to say, it was Stab/JG 27 and III./JG 27 based at Ljuban, Volkhov area, between 06.09 and 29.09.1941.

Furthermore, what bothers me about the eBay photo in post No.1 is the apparent presence of the unarmed German soldier guarding the aircraft, plus a number of wooden planks, possibly inscribed in Russian, as a warning to the local population to stay away from the aircraft. This indicates that the aircraft quite possibly belly landed on the German-held territory.

Is the other way around possible? According to the event account, the above aircraft belly-landed on the Russian-held territory. This would mean that it was effectively lost (i.e., 100%), because the German Army on the central section of the front managed to hold the line, albeit only just, after it fell back some 150-200 km, but it did not make any substantial recovery of the lost territory, and the front, more-or-less remain stable and static for many months (i.e., that is until the Battle of Rzhev, later the same year), while the German High Command shifted its attention to the southern sector of the Eastern Front. Therefore, the presence of the especially unarmed German soldier, if that was a German soldier of course, at the aircraft there is somewhat unlikely in the spring of 1942.

When I look at the Stab/JG 52 “Chevrons and bars” markings of late 1941, they look differently than those sported on this belly-landed Bf109F. The replacement of the JG 52 Geschwader emblem with apparently the Kommodore’s personal emblem is also hard to explain.

To try and conclude, perhaps we do have a Bf 109 F aircraft belly-landed at Grodino after all, it is just that it did not belong to JG 52.

As suggested, the case is now considered closed anyway. Or is it?

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Merlin

... The emblem below the cabin is similar to that of III./JG 27, it’s not the Geschwader emblem of JG 27. This seems to be a personal add by Maj. Wilhelm Lessmann, who led JG 52 from 10.41 to 06.42. The emblem should remind him of his first command as Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 131 during 1937/38. This unit became later I./JG 130, I./JG 1 and finally III./JG 27.[/font]

Merlin,

Are you sure of that?
Or is it just "seems" and "should"?? First, when reading you, I thought it was in LiF comments; but it's not.

Why no victory board on fin when his 13199 was updated in June 1942?
Any other photo of this "personnal emblem" and, by the way, Lessmann's machine(s) available?

Last: re-reading JFV Teil 1, I just have a question: When Jesau shield started to be I./JG 131 emblem? The only clear given date is in comments Under Wolenga machine's photo, i.e. Summer 1938 AND, last but not least, I./JG 131 started to receive Bf 109B in MAY 1938 ... Lessmann was already OFF this unit ... Unless you show us an Arado wearing the shield.

Regards, Franck.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Can w be sure that this was the aircraft of Major Wilhelm Lessmann, Kommodore of JG 52, or is it really the aircraft of Karl-Heinz Leesmann, the Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 52?

The loss record does not indicate that the aircraft was from Stab/JG 52 (the rule for the loss records - yes I know there are omissions and errors with regards to this- would be to enter one line for the aircraft, and one for the pilot linking them by a comment (s.lfd.Nr.X) respectively)

Are there no contemporary photos of the aircraft of these unit commanders from this period?

(not in my library at the moment, so no access to the Prien Jagdwaffe book series just now)

Regards,
Andreas B

[sidney]

A scan of the back-side of the photo, kindly provided by the seller. Can any of our German speaking colleagues decipher the hand-writing for the benefit of all of us?

[sidney]

As suggested by Göran (F19Gladiator) on the LEMB, the photo should be mirrored. My apology. It reads: "ein notgelandeter deutscher Jäger in ?aslovo"