Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

[cj mohr]

Pawel and Nick, I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for the help, it is very much appreciated. Thank you.

V/R
CJ Mohr

[Boomerang]

Hello:

There are some references to Rudel's claimed involvement at Kursk in this discussion:

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Fo...ML/000016.html

My reading was that Rudel's statements have to be treated with caution and are difficult to test with hard data.

Some fascinating comments about the participation of the Hs 129 tankbusters.

Regards

Don W

[John Manrho]

I read that link and it seems that there is discussion that Ju 87G-1 actually took part in the tank battle of mid July? I thought that was already substantiated. Pawel, any input?

John

[John Beaman]

Interesting discussion to say the least. It puts paid to a lot of claims, something not uncommon as we are all discovering in recent years. It would appear that overclaiming was not just an "air force" fighter pilots' problem, but others as well.

Not being widely read on some issues, I am suprised at the comments about David Glantz's authorship. I thought he was highly respected as a Western scholar of Eastern Front action in WWII

[Pawel Burchard]

Originally Posted by John Manrho

I read that link and it seems that there is discussion that Ju 87G-1 actually took part in the tank battle of mid July? I thought that was already substantiated. Pawel, any input?

John

I do not know, the only evidence of Ju 87 G early operations is that from KTB Stab Stuka 2 during the Kuban-battle, when VfP was attached to Stuka 2 in May 1943. The KTB gives the exact numbers of 3,7 cm-ammunition used up daily, so we can be certain that Ju 87 Gs were actually engaged. For the July 1943 nothing similar is available. I do not even know if VfP was further used as 'autonomic' unit or the Gs were spread throughout variuos Stuka Gruppen.

p.

[Nokose]

John, I've had David Glantz's book on Operation "Mars" about the battle of Rzhev which was so dry that I thought I would never finish it. In Oct. there is a Russian translated book of Valeriy Zamulin's coming out called "Demolishing the Myth: The Tank Battle at Proklrovka, Kursk, July 1943" that is suppose to be good (one of three parts on the ground battle).

The following is from V. Gorbach's already mentioned book for the 08Jul43 around 10:30.
"In the air large groups of German aircraft appeared, which began continuous attacks on the advancing units of the 2nd and 5th Guards Tank Corps. Soviet tankers described the type of German aircraft, which participated in the attacks as Ju 87 and Bf 110, armed with antitank guns. In reality the main role in restraining of the Soviet attack played the antitank crew forces of 4. and 8.(Pz)/SchG1, 4.(Pz)/SchG2, and also Pz.Jg.St/JG51."

[yogybär]

Originally Posted by Pawel Burchard

Following is last entry of available KTB of Stab Stuka 2

4.7.1943 | Das Geschwader verlegt mit allen Gruppen und der Panzerjagdstaffel ohne Bodenpersonal der I./2 nach Charkow-Nord. Es werden 89 Ju 87 überführt. Die übrigen Flugzeuge werden in den nächsten Tagen nachgeholt.
[...]

The Panzerjagdstaffel (incl. its Ju87G) was moved to Charkiv in July and that is enough for me to show that it was at least planned to use it in battle, question is only under which circumstances? Somewhere I read that all Panzerjäger were to be held back for defensive ops only

There is at leat one other potential reaon that it was not used: Lack of tungsten ammo, which we cannot exclude now. But is is slightly improbable, taking into considerations all efforts for Zitadelle.

There is even a hint that the G-Stukas were not used in July:
No loss or even damage-report can be found before 4th of August:
http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/...its/stuka2.htm
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/stuka/bistg2.html

So, I tend to say that they were really not used in July. 4th of August is a day when the Heeresgruppe Süd was definitely in defanse after operation Rumyantsev started of so successfully...

Altogether: Interesting detail, that...

[mars]

Originally Posted by Nokose

John, I've had David Glantz's book on Operation "Mars" about the battle of Rzhev which was so dry that I thought I would never finish it. In Oct. there is a Russian translated book of Valeriy Zamulin's coming out called "Demolishing the Myth: The Tank Battle at Proklrovka, Kursk, July 1943" that is suppose to be good (one of three parts on the ground battle).

The following is from V. Gorbach's already mentioned book for the 08Jul43 around 10:30.
"In the air large groups of German aircraft appeared, which began continuous attacks on the advancing units of the 2nd and 5th Guards Tank Corps. Soviet tankers described the type of German aircraft, which participated in the attacks as Ju 87 and Bf 110, armed with antitank guns. In reality the main role in restraining of the Soviet attack played the antitank crew forces of 4. and 8.(Pz)/SchG1, 4.(Pz)/SchG2, and also Pz.Jg.St/JG51."

Do you mean this book would be published in English? That would be great.

[Nokose]

Yes, Zamulins book is suppose to be in English according to Stone & Stone military books site. I understand he was the historian of the Kursk battlefield and his books are suppose to have both sides covered but have not seen any examples.

[John Manrho]

Found a loss on July 14th, 1943:

Ju 87G-1, WNr. 1082, DJ+FE?, Pz,Jg.St/St.G.1
Ofw. Ulrich Mundt WIA/Fw. Robert Kolland KIA.

Cheers,

John