Erich Hartmann - several questions

[Rob Romero]

Diego,

Yes I think we would all be interested in your chart on which Experten were shot down and by whom?

Thanks!

[DiegoZampini]

Dear Rob:

Originally Posted by Rob Romero

Diego,
Yes I think we would all be interested in your chart on which Experten were shot down and by whom?
Thanks!

Always a pleisure. What follows are some of the cases when Il-2 Shturmovik pilots shot down German aircraft, including fighters (and experten):
-24.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Bf.109F-4/R1 W.Nr.13388 Obltn. Erwin Stracnicky Staffelkapitan 2./JG 3 Experte with 35 victories
-25.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Ju.88A-4 W.Nr.5540 Uffz. Karl Stoll + 3 crewmembers 6./KG 76.
-29.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Bf.110E-2 "S9+BH" Unknown crew 1./ZG 1.
-5.09.1942 Ivan Vovkogon (299 ShAP) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.14239 Hptm. Hans Oehlschläger Stab I./JG 52.
-5.09.1942 Fiodor Zhigarin (299 ShAP) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.? Unknown crew (50% damage) 3./JG 52
-9.09.1942 Pavel S. Vinogradov (694 ShAP, 228 ShAD) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13442 Ltn. Alfred Franke (KIA) 2./JG 53 Experte with 60 victories
-29.09.1942 Aleksandr Scherbanin (57 ShAP KBF) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13613 Ltn. Erwin Leykauf 11./JG 54 Experte with 29 victories then, he would claim a total of 33 Taran Scherbanin KIA.
-21.02.1943 Talgat Y. Begeldinov (144 GShAP, 9 GShAD) Bf.109G-2/R6 W.Nr.13949 Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn (POW) Gruppenkomandeur II./JG 54 Experte with 108 victories
-20.08.1943 Of course the already mentioned case of Pavel Evdokimov downing Erich Hartmann.
-8.09.1943 Talgat Y. Begeldinov (144 GShAP, 9 GShAD) Ju.87D-5 W.Nr.130845 Unknown crew (30% damage) 8./StG 2.
-14.02.1945 Vasiliy Karaman (806 ShAP, 206 ShAD) Fw.190A-8 W.Nr.960282 Obltn. Otto Kittel (KIA) 2./JG 54 Experte with 267 victories
Those are only same examples (I'm still researching about this matter). But so far it seems that in many cases the Shturmovik fliers were not the preys, but instead became the hunters.
I hope this info helps you, Rob.
Diego

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

-29.09.1942 Aleksandr Scherbanin (57 ShAP KBF) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13613 Ltn. Erwin Leykauf 11./JG 54 Experte with 29 victories then, he would claim a total of 33 Taran Scherbanin KIA.

Regarding his flightbook he was shot down by light russian AAA ... nothing from "Feindberührung mit IL 2" or taran .

regards
Rasmussen

[DiegoZampini]

Rasmussen:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen

Regarding his flightbook he was shot down by light russian AAA ... nothing from "Feindberührung mit IL 2" or taran .

I know, that officially Leykauf himself credited his shootdown to the AAA. About this episode Christer Bergstrom says (Black Cross Red Star. Vol.3, p. 204-205): "Leykauf recalls that HE WAS PURSUING AN IL-2 AT DUBROVKA, his aircraft was severely hit by enemy groundfire, ACCORDING TO LEYKAUF, which forced him to bail out. The corresponding Soviet claim, ACCORDING TO WHICH THE IL-2 (FROM 57 SHAP/VVS KBF) THAT HAD BEEN SET AFIRE BY A BF.109 RAMMED THIS GERMAN FIGHTER, seems to be less credible."
Even I disagree with Bergstrom -I have no reason why do not believe that Scherbanin did not ramm Leyhauf, I CONSIDER THE RUSSIAN VERSION CREDIBLE- the shootdown of Leykauf occurred during a combat against Il-2s. It is not hard for me to think that Leykauf flamed Scherbanin's Il-2, and considering it finished, he then realized that was near the Soviet lines and focused in the AAA fire. Unseen to Leykauf, the wounded Scherbanin decided to ram his Shturmovik against Leykauf's Bf.109G, who in good faith thought that have been downed by flak. Leykauf would not be the first pilot who did not see what struck it, and wrongly assumed that was AAA.
Kind regards,
Diego

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

Even I disagree with Bergstrom -I have no reason why do not believe that Scherbanin did not ramm Leyhauf, I CONSIDER THE RUSSIAN VERSION CREDIBLE- the shootdown of Leykauf occurred during a combat against Il-2s. It is not hard for me to think that Leykauf flamed Scherbanin's Il-2, and considering it finished, he then realized that was near the Soviet lines and focused in the AAA fire. Unseen to Leykauf, the wounded Scherbanin decided to ram his Shturmovik against Leykauf's Bf.109G, who in good faith thought that have been downed by flak. Leykauf would not be the first pilot who did not see what struck it, and wrongly assumed that was AAA.

Hi Diego,

unfortunately this are assumptions ... and of course it's more heroic to ram the "fascist" before the crash than an simple shot down by the "fascist" (especially for an soviet pilot at this time ... the soviet clerks too). There are eyewitness reports or reports from the mentioned AAA unit known and were cross checked? I'd believe Leykauf was able to distinguish between an ram and AAA fire and to report this correct.

Best regards
Rasmussen

[Nikita Egorov]

:-))

Diego,

The majority of reports from Soviet side with such vivid words as: "exploded into flames, crashed trailing heavy black smoke" etc. usualy have no backgound confirmation from German side. Hahn was surely shot down by pilots of 169 IAP, even if not by Grazhdaninov, then by Bocharov.

Please be careful of the sources you use. Stracnizky was not shot down by Danilov on August 24, 1942 and Lasarev for sure can not be a victim of Hartmann, as he collided with Pe-2 and crashed due to this reason on March 1, 1945.

[Ota Jirovec]

Diego,

Nikita put it very clearly - many cases provided by you do not stand up to closer scrutiny (Hartmann, Hahn, Straznicky...). It would be indeed wiser not to rely on the Soviet/Russian memoir literature, which is notoriously unreliable. Otherwise, you are in risk of reviving some old myths or even creating some new ones.

Ota

[DiegoZampini]

Privet, Nikita

Originally Posted by Nikita Egorov

:-)) The majority of reports from Soviet side with such vivid words as: "exploded into flames, crashed trailing heavy black smoke" etc. usualy have no backgound confirmation from German side. Hahn was surely shot down by pilots of 169 IAP, even if not by Grazhdaninov, then by Bocharov.

My experience with Russian accounts is the opposite: I mistrust when a Soviet pilot says "I shot this aircraft down" and do not give more details. I gave more reliability if the pilot gives a lot of details. Of course I know that, if there is not corresponding loss from the other side, even if the account is vivid, it is likely an overclaim.
Certainly is quite probable that Hahn's victor was Grazhdanikov and not Begeldinov. Wait please till I translate both accounts, and we can discuss about this. Of course, it is quite probable, that you are right

Please be careful of the sources you use. Stracnizky was not shot down by Danilov on August 24, 1942

By whom was shot down then? I used Prien as source, who listed Stracnizky downed in "Luftkampf" on 24 August 1942, and Danilov's claim matched quite closely in place and time. There were other Soviet claiminants that day, like for example 296 IAP's Yak-1 pilots Boris Yeromin and Aleksandr Solomatin, but they tangled with Bf.109Gs of I./JG 53.
Furthermore, I distrust the German loss archives. As Dánes Bárnad stated here, the Germans were much less reliable than the Russians to record losses, and that matches my experience with them. Furthermore, the racial prejudices caused that the Germans always prefered credit losses to AAA or "accidents" than to the Soviet "untermeschen" pilots. It varied on unit and period of time, but there is always a huge underestimation of losses causes by Soviet flighters.

and Lasarev for sure can not be a victim of Hartmann, as he collided with Pe-2 and crashed due to this reason on March 1, 1945.

In that case I was only quoting Khazanov, but I have Bykov's book Asy Velikoy Otechestvennoy Voyny, Samye rezultativnye liotchiki 1941-1945 gg of 2008, and of course I know that Lazaryev officially died colliding against a Pe-2.
Kind regards,
Diego

[DiegoZampini]

Originally Posted by Rasmussen

unfortunately this are assumptions ... and of course it's more heroic to ram the "fascist" before the crash than an simple shot down by the "fascist" (especially for an soviet pilot at this time ... the soviet clerks too). There are eyewitness reports or reports from the mentioned AAA unit known and were cross checked? I'd believe Leykauf was able to distinguish between an ram and AAA fire and to report this correct.

Yes, of course it is more heroic if the Soviet flier rammed the "fascist". And I do not discard the chance that there is an embelishment of the event to give other Soviet pilots "an example to follow", or an attempt to cover excesive losses with an "heroic act". But that is also an assumption.
In the other hand, it seems to me that you consider that such event (intentional ramming) is immediately unlikely, like if a Russian airmen would be unable to perform such a deed, and if it would be always preferable to believe a German account than a Russian one. If it is the case, I disagree. And if it is not (if you give the same reliability to the Russians than the Germans), I apologyze for missunderstanding you.
Regarding Leykauf being able to distinguish between a ramming and AAA fire: How could he for sure distinguish between a ram and AAA? Unless he had been hit by flak or rammed before. But so far the German loss records do not show that such a thing had happened. Of course I might be wrong.
Kind regards
Diego

[DiegoZampini]

Hi, guys:
For the ones who don't speak Russian, I translate into English the text kindly posted by Evgeniy, accounting the air combat where likely the La-5 ace Pavel Grazhdanikov (169 IAP) shot down Bf.109G ace Hans "Assi" Hahn on 21 February 1943.

Shortly before 9:00 hs from Rebiltsy airodrome took off six Bf.109Gs, led by Gruppenkomandeur II./JG 54, Major [Hans] Hahn. The mission of the 6-planes group was freie jagd (free hunt) and to seach for Soviet aircraft attacking the German columns retreating from Demyansk. The area asigned for hunting was at the west of Demyansk-Ramushevo. About that same time (+ 2 hs Moskow time, the time difference in Winter) from aerodrome Zaborove scrambled six fighters La-5 of 169 IAP, led by Kapitan Chislov, with the mission of patrolling the area of the cauldron.
According to the report of Hahn's wingman, Oberleutnant [Max] Stotz, kontakt with the group of 8 La-5 took place at 9:09 hs, in the southern end of the cauldron, at an altitude of 2500 meters. The pair Hahn-Stotz separated of the group and jumped the Soviet aircraft with an altitude advantage of 200 meters. According to the memories of Hahn, they attacked a group of Aircobras, after what Hahn shot down one, which blew up in mid-air, and the aircraft attacked by Stotz smoked heavily, and the pilot bailed out. According to our data, in the first attack was downed and died Starshiy Leytenant Vorovyev, and Mladshiy Leytenant Balandin could abandon his flaming aircraft in parachute. After that both groups, our and German ones, scattered and the combat continued. Stotz lost track of his leader and was dragged to maneuvering dogfight with the Russian leader, after what to the damaged Chislov's airplane was necessary disengage to return to his aerodrome. Hahn attacked Grazhdanikov, but doing so he himself exposed to the attack of Grazhdanikov's wingman, Starzhyy Serzhant Davydov. Hahn's fight was observed by the remaining four German fighters. When they saw that Hahn fought alone against two Soviet airplanes, to help him rushed pair of Oberfeldwebel Repple. According to the report of Repple himself: "I wanted to atack the La-5 who flew higher. But I saw that already was under attack of a Bf.109. I identified this aircraft, like the one belonging to Major Hahn. Then I began to climb/gain altitude. Soon after that I spotted two airplanes, and realized that they were La-5s. I dived towards them and realized that they pursued a Bf.109." However Repple was late, Grazhdanikov and Davydov managed to struck the Bf.109. Repple could fire a long barrier burst, after what the two La-5s evaded attack and went to the south. The damaged Bf.109 began to set the course in north-western direction. According to Repple it had not visible damage.
Hahn could not reach his base. For the last time linked up with Stotz and radioed the following: "Stotz, they taught dad a good lesson. I must perform a emergency landing." After that he landed near the road from Novaya Derevnya, south-west of Demyansk, not far from a passing columns of reinforcements.
Hahn was brought to Zaborovye, where he met pilots of 32 GIAP and 169 IAP.
After that was transfered to Vypolzovo, where he was interrogated several times."

Tomorrow will be very bussy, but in the night I will reply all remaining posts, specially the ones to Nikita Egorov and Dénes Bernád (Mr. Bernád, I apologyze that I misspelled your name earlier).
Kind regards,
Diego