Erich Hartmann - several questions

[DiegoZampini]

Rasmussen:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen

Regarding his flightbook he was shot down by light russian AAA ... nothing from "Feindberührung mit IL 2" or taran .

I know, that officially Leykauf himself credited his shootdown to the AAA. About this episode Christer Bergstrom says (Black Cross Red Star. Vol.3, p. 204-205): "Leykauf recalls that HE WAS PURSUING AN IL-2 AT DUBROVKA, his aircraft was severely hit by enemy groundfire, ACCORDING TO LEYKAUF, which forced him to bail out. The corresponding Soviet claim, ACCORDING TO WHICH THE IL-2 (FROM 57 SHAP/VVS KBF) THAT HAD BEEN SET AFIRE BY A BF.109 RAMMED THIS GERMAN FIGHTER, seems to be less credible."
Even I disagree with Bergstrom -I have no reason why do not believe that Scherbanin did not ramm Leyhauf, I CONSIDER THE RUSSIAN VERSION CREDIBLE- the shootdown of Leykauf occurred during a combat against Il-2s. It is not hard for me to think that Leykauf flamed Scherbanin's Il-2, and considering it finished, he then realized that was near the Soviet lines and focused in the AAA fire. Unseen to Leykauf, the wounded Scherbanin decided to ram his Shturmovik against Leykauf's Bf.109G, who in good faith thought that have been downed by flak. Leykauf would not be the first pilot who did not see what struck it, and wrongly assumed that was AAA.
Kind regards,
Diego

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

Even I disagree with Bergstrom -I have no reason why do not believe that Scherbanin did not ramm Leyhauf, I CONSIDER THE RUSSIAN VERSION CREDIBLE- the shootdown of Leykauf occurred during a combat against Il-2s. It is not hard for me to think that Leykauf flamed Scherbanin's Il-2, and considering it finished, he then realized that was near the Soviet lines and focused in the AAA fire. Unseen to Leykauf, the wounded Scherbanin decided to ram his Shturmovik against Leykauf's Bf.109G, who in good faith thought that have been downed by flak. Leykauf would not be the first pilot who did not see what struck it, and wrongly assumed that was AAA.

Hi Diego,

unfortunately this are assumptions ... and of course it's more heroic to ram the "fascist" before the crash than an simple shot down by the "fascist" (especially for an soviet pilot at this time ... the soviet clerks too). There are eyewitness reports or reports from the mentioned AAA unit known and were cross checked? I'd believe Leykauf was able to distinguish between an ram and AAA fire and to report this correct.

Best regards
Rasmussen

[Nikita Egorov]

:-))

Diego,

The majority of reports from Soviet side with such vivid words as: "exploded into flames, crashed trailing heavy black smoke" etc. usualy have no backgound confirmation from German side. Hahn was surely shot down by pilots of 169 IAP, even if not by Grazhdaninov, then by Bocharov.

Please be careful of the sources you use. Stracnizky was not shot down by Danilov on August 24, 1942 and Lasarev for sure can not be a victim of Hartmann, as he collided with Pe-2 and crashed due to this reason on March 1, 1945.

[Ota Jirovec]

Diego,

Nikita put it very clearly - many cases provided by you do not stand up to closer scrutiny (Hartmann, Hahn, Straznicky...). It would be indeed wiser not to rely on the Soviet/Russian memoir literature, which is notoriously unreliable. Otherwise, you are in risk of reviving some old myths or even creating some new ones.

Ota

[DiegoZampini]

Privet, Nikita

Originally Posted by Nikita Egorov

:-)) The majority of reports from Soviet side with such vivid words as: "exploded into flames, crashed trailing heavy black smoke" etc. usualy have no backgound confirmation from German side. Hahn was surely shot down by pilots of 169 IAP, even if not by Grazhdaninov, then by Bocharov.

My experience with Russian accounts is the opposite: I mistrust when a Soviet pilot says "I shot this aircraft down" and do not give more details. I gave more reliability if the pilot gives a lot of details. Of course I know that, if there is not corresponding loss from the other side, even if the account is vivid, it is likely an overclaim.
Certainly is quite probable that Hahn's victor was Grazhdanikov and not Begeldinov. Wait please till I translate both accounts, and we can discuss about this. Of course, it is quite probable, that you are right

Please be careful of the sources you use. Stracnizky was not shot down by Danilov on August 24, 1942

By whom was shot down then? I used Prien as source, who listed Stracnizky downed in "Luftkampf" on 24 August 1942, and Danilov's claim matched quite closely in place and time. There were other Soviet claiminants that day, like for example 296 IAP's Yak-1 pilots Boris Yeromin and Aleksandr Solomatin, but they tangled with Bf.109Gs of I./JG 53.
Furthermore, I distrust the German loss archives. As Dánes Bárnad stated here, the Germans were much less reliable than the Russians to record losses, and that matches my experience with them. Furthermore, the racial prejudices caused that the Germans always prefered credit losses to AAA or "accidents" than to the Soviet "untermeschen" pilots. It varied on unit and period of time, but there is always a huge underestimation of losses causes by Soviet flighters.

and Lasarev for sure can not be a victim of Hartmann, as he collided with Pe-2 and crashed due to this reason on March 1, 1945.

In that case I was only quoting Khazanov, but I have Bykov's book Asy Velikoy Otechestvennoy Voyny, Samye rezultativnye liotchiki 1941-1945 gg of 2008, and of course I know that Lazaryev officially died colliding against a Pe-2.
Kind regards,
Diego

[Nikita Egorov]

Diego,

My experience with Russian accounts is the opposite: I mistrust when a Soviet pilot says "I shot this aircraft down" and do not give more details. I gave more reliability if the pilot gives a lot of details. Of course I know that, if there is not corresponding loss from the other side, even if the account is vivid, it is likely an overclaim.
Certainly is quite probable that Hahn's victor was Grazhdanikov and not Begeldinov. Wait please till I translate both accounts, and we can discuss about this. Of course, it is quite probable, that you are right

You do not have to translate this piece of narration, at least for me, because I have written it myself.
No matter whether report is full of details or have none of them, only matching other side records could give any result in real confirmation of a claim. Lots of details in report could have their origins in pilot's imagination.

By whom was shot down then? I used Prien as source, who listed Stracnizky downed in "Luftkampf" on 24 August 1942, and Danilov's claim matched quite closely in place and time. There were other Soviet claiminants that day, like for example 296 IAP's Yak-1 pilots Boris Yeromin and Aleksandr Solomatin, but they tangled with Bf.109Gs of I./JG 53.
Furthermore, I distrust the German loss archives. As Dánes Bárnad stated here, the Germans were much less reliable than the Russians to record losses, and that matches my experience with them. Furthermore, the racial prejudices caused that the Germans always prefered credit losses to AAA or "accidents" than to the Soviet "untermeschen" pilots. It varied on unit and period of time, but there is always a huge underestimation of losses causes by Soviet flighters.

Could I ask you a question: where did you find exact time of Stracnizky's crash and Danilov's claim? Another question is how did you get to conclusion that Yeryomin and Solomatin clashed with I/JG53, instead of JG3. And the last question could you please list other Soviet fighters claims against Bf-109s in this area this day (I could give you a hint, in general there were nine of them)
As regards to loss records, I believe you have got Denes in a wrong way, how you can compare this if you do not see original records from one side and you know that the majority of orginal files from another side has been lost?

[DiegoZampini]

Nikita:
Once again, I apologyze for replying to your posts that later. The scholar year began shortly before here in Argentina, and I have my hands full with my work as teacher. Furthermore, I am organizing the visit of my Russian girlfriend to my country (she will meet my family) and I want that everything will be allright. But tonight and tomorrow I'll have some free time and answer your replies:

Originally Posted by Nikita Egorov

Diego,
You do not have to translate this piece of narration, at least for me, because I have written it myself.

Ponyal (Understood). No ya sdelal dlya vsex chitatelyax, kotoryx ne mogut ponimat' russkiy yazyk (But I did for all readers, that cannot understand Russian )

No matter whether report is full of details or have none of them, only matching other side records could give any result in real confirmation of a claim. Lots of details in report could have their origins in pilot's imagination.

But how can you fully match on the other side's records are that uncomplete as German ones? I fully agree with you that to research the opponent's loss records give the real confirmation (or ultimate discarding) of a certain claim, and I also know that veterans' memories can fool even themselves (assuming good faith).
But when one finds that many gaps as one can find in Luftwaffe loss records, that a loss is not mentioned there it does not mean it did not occur. Furthermore, even knowing that veterans' memoirs can be very unaccurate (and knowing that is always better to back them up with official documents), Why to discard veterans' testimonies that quickly? After all, THEY WERE THERE, not you, neither I nor most of researchers.

Could I ask you a question: where did you find exact time of Stracnizky's crash and Danilov's claim? Another question is how did you get to conclusion that Yeryomin and Solomatin clashed with I/JG53, instead of JG3. And the last question could you please list other Soviet fighters claims against Bf-109s in this area this day (I could give you a hint, in general there were nine of them)

Regarding Stracnizky-Danilov: I admitt that time I did not find, but Prien place Stracnizky in Pl.Q. 49161, which is (if I did not misplaced it) over Stalingrad outskirts, N of the city. Bergstrom indicates that most of 265 Soviet sorties that day (specially Shturmoviks) were N-NW of the city to cut supplies to General Hube's 16th Pazerdivision. The place matched.
Regarding Yeryomin and Solomatin: they scored victories in the same combat, and it was logical to assume that they scored them against aircraft of the same unit. There were no two losses in JG 3, but there were two in I./JG 53:
-Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 14161 Uffz. Gustav Perl (MIA, Experte with 12 victories)
-Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13552 Uffz. Heinz Seig (WIA, Experte with 15 victories) (Engine failure?)
Other Soviet claims that day that I know (all over the city itself):
-Ivan P. Motornyy Yak-1 512 IAP, 220 IAD Ju.88 (probably Ju.88D-1 W.Nr.1680 4 KIAs 3.(F)/121)
-Grigoriy K. Gultyayev Yak-1 788 IAP, 102 IAD PVO Ju.87 (probably Ju.87D W.Nr.2432 Crew Unknown 75% written off 1./StG 77) (Accident?)
-Ivan M. Dzyuba Yak-1 12 IAP, 288 IAD Bf.109 (probably Bf.109E-7 W.Nr.6392 Fw. Hans Beruwka MIA 3./SchG 1) (Cause unknown)
That makes 6 identified claims. Evidently there are 3 additional claims that I ignore. Please, if I wrongly cross-referenced German losses with Soviet claiminants, correct my mistakes, and if you want share with us your findings. I am willing to learn from my mistakes and correct them.

As regards to loss records, I believe you have got Denes in a wrong way, how you can compare this if you do not see original records from one side and you know that the majority of orginal files from another side has been lost?

PROBABLY YOU ARE RIGHT ON THAT, NIKITA.
BTW, Yevgeny Velichko told me that you are working on a book about the Air Battle of Stalingrad. Congratulations!! It is already in the Russian book stores? I want to buy it!
Kind regards,
Diego

PS: I will repeat this post in a new thread "Soviet air victories over Stalingrad" in the "Soviet and Allied air forces" forum, to do not desvirtuate the original topic (Hartmann's). If you consider that this is the right thing to do, reply there.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

As Dánes Bárnad stated here, the Germans were much less reliable than the Russians to record losses...

This is not what I've said. I was only pointing out that the sample of VVS loss records I was shown are even more complete than the Luftwaffe ones. Nothing else.

If, on ideological grounds you distrust the Luftwaffe loss records compiled for INTERNAL use, not intended for publicity, then you're left with virtually nothing to rely on from the German (or Axis) side.
With the same logic, you have to distrust the Soviet loss records, too, as ideologically, the two totalitarian regimes were not that far apart...

[DiegoZampini]

Hi again, guys:
I apologyze for not replying your posts sooner. I was extremely bussy, much more than I anticipated. Now I reply your posts.
Dear Dénes:

Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád

This is not what I've said. I was only pointing out that the sample of VVS loss records I was shown are even more complete than the Luftwaffe ones. Nothing else.

Even when this is only retoric, I ask you: if Luftwaffe's loss records are less complete than the VVS ones, It does not mean you cannot fully trust (RELY) on them?
I know that you that there is a difference between to say that a set of archives are uncomplete, and to say that one cannot rely on them. But unreliability is a logic comsequence of uncompleteness - if they are so uncomplete, How can one to be sure that there are no more losses than the ones mentioned in such archives, or even that the cause of loss mentioned there is the actual one?

If, on ideological grounds you distrust the Luftwaffe loss records compiled for INTERNAL use, not intended for publicity, then you're left with virtually nothing to rely on from the German (or Axis) side.
With the same logic, you have to distrust the Soviet loss records, too, as ideologically, the two totalitarian regimes were not that far apart...

Assuming that Comunism is a totalitarian regime, COMUNISM IS NOT IN THE SAME LEVEL THAN NAZISM. WHY? BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING THAT COMMUNISM NEVER HAD, BUT NAZISM HAD FROM ITS SAME ROOTS: RACISM. THIS IS THE IDIOLOGICAL COMPONENT OF NAZISM (AND NONE ELSE), WHICH MAKES ME SKEPTIC OF THE GERMAN LOSS RECORDS.
Most of the German war actions in the East were led right from the start by the premise that the "Russians" were untermeschen and they did not deserve any respect. And many of the Luftwaffe members were known by sharing that point of view. Many of them changed their mind (e.g. Trautloft and Lutzow) but many others stubbornly kept loyal to Nazism and its racism - the top example was Hans-Ulrich Rudel, who in his biograhy After all repeated over and over again the same slogans about the Russians being masses from the East (even when sometimes conceded some merits to them, like to admitt the aiming skills of the Russian women operating the AAA batteries in Stalingrad). Hartmann himself was an example. Initially he understimated his Soviet opponents, and his mentor Alfred Grislawski many times reprimend him saying: "Do you think the Russians doesn't know how to shoot?" Summarizing: Racism and understimation of the Slavs (and comsequently the Soviet military capabilities) remained at all levels of the Whermacht along the whole war, even when they were already extremely evident. ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE, THAT SUCH UNDERESTIMATION DID NOT AFFECT GERMAN LOSS RECORDS? CAN YOU ASSURE THAT THE GERMANS DID NOT PREFER TO CREDIT LOSSES TO ACCIDENTS THAN TO SOVIET PILOTS BECAUSE OF SUCH RACISM?
If your experience dealing with Luftwaffe loss records is that racism did not affect them, that in them there is not an understimation of Soviet fighter pilots, please share it with us. In my case perhaps might change my skepticism
Kind regards, always a pleasure to discuss with you
Diego

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

Dear Dénes:

Diego, a few general notes on your previous post before returning to aviation:
1, when I meant the sample of VVS loss records I saw are more complete than the Luftwaffe's, I actually meant that there were more information given on a certain loss (e.g., the engine serial number). Nothing else. I trust the Luftwaffe loss records compiled for internal purpose exactly the same way I trust the similar VVS records. If you mix ideology with facts, it's a dead end.
2, it is not up to one's assumption, or belief if Communism was a totalitarian regime (like Nazism) or not. It was. This is a historical fact. There are many specialist books dealing with this issue, check them out.
3, the Germans, Slavs (and Jews) all belong to the same human race. Therefore, anti-Slavism (certainly existing in Nazi circles) cannot be called racism.
4, Finally, everyone visiting this forum can read and understand English. Please do not use capitals when trying to emphasize a certain detail, as it amounts to shouting and this behaviour is not encouraged.

I don't intend to go off topic any further on this interesting thread, so let's not highjack it. If you wish to continue this, please open a new topic in the General section.