eBay: one late Bf 109 with RV Band: JG 4

[ouidjat]

Hi Guys,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Photo-R...item19e50747a2

With date, 4-Dec-44, and local, Mansbach, from where this “caption” has been written, and Scherpenseel, where the crash occurred, on picture's back:

One match?:
Bf 109 G-10; WNr.490377 (correct WNr. 490 373); "Blaue 17"; shot down by AA fire; 16/JG 4 flown by Uffz. Heinz Hook (+), 100%, Aachen area. ???

Given date for the loss is different: 3/12 instead of 4/12, but as I wrote upper 4/12 is the day when the photo’s caption has been written from Mansbach (or Mausbach better, 17km East of Aachen). The GI had other things to do but to run behind his shot on 3/12 !!!

And Scherpenseel is just 19km North of Aachen which matches with loss data “Aachen area”.

Questions:
- No Gruppe marking ?? Some hadn’t.

Regards, Franck.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Thanks for your find, Franck.
All details (camouflage, long tail wheel strut) do point to an Erla built Bf 09 G10 indeed…

Interesting the numbers "78" painted under the tailplane. As they stand isolated, they are not part of the W.Nr. I wonder what for they were applied.

Cheers
Marc

[ouidjat]

Thanks Marc,

JG 4 lost, at least, 18 machines this day. Among them 8 were due to AA fire. Among the 18, 2 G-10s, one K-4, the rest being G-14 and G-14/AS.
This is the only "17" .. for now.

Cheers, Franck.

[Cpt_Farrel]

The W.Nr is an early one for an Erla built G-10 which also fits with the size of the national marking. The all 76(?) backing of the national markings is new to me but given that the national markings often were applied before the camouflage it's not surprising.

Most of the IV./JG4 aircraft I can think of did have the IV gruppe marking though but given how many details that fit I'd say it's likely you've got the right I.D. for this one

Great work! Thanks!

[RolandF]

A stupid question: I have Hook´s Bf109 as WNr 490373, I´s alway the same with digits occurring twice or more in WNrn.....
So which one seems to be correct?

Regards

roland

[ouidjat]

Thanks Roland to point that....

ME TOO!!!

I obviously made a mistake when copying the WNr. !!! Sorry. .

Regards, Franck.

PS corrected in original post.

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel

The W.Nr is an early one for an Erla built G-10 which also fits with the size of the national marking. The all 76(?) backing of the national markings is new to me but given that the national markings often were applied before the camouflage it's not surprising.

Most of the IV./JG4 aircraft I can think of did have the IV gruppe marking though but given how many details that fit I'd say it's likely you've got the right I.D. for this one

Great work! Thanks!

Thanks Anders.
Some had not according to already published machines.
JG 4 had other - pictured - machines wearing this strange national marking (looks like a decal)

[Heuser]

Gentlemen,

I am not 100% sure if this is really Hooks a/c; Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report No.265 mentiones a Bf 109 G-14 "blue 17" with "black, white, black stripes" in the area "S of Eschweiler" among some other losses of I. and IV./JG 4 a/c on 03.12.1944.

Further this report gives the Werknummer with "46074" and the engine with DB 605 ASM, which indicates a G-14/AS.

So, we have a report of a "blue 17" of JG 4 with a crippled G-14-Werknummer and an AS-engine of S of Eschweiler (= Mausbach?), Hooks G-10 "blue 17" 490 373 and a crash location near Scherpenseel - but in any case case, neither the Werknummer nor the type of engine matches...

Regards,

Heuser

[Cpt_Farrel]

Interesting! The few Erla built Bf109G-14/AS' that I've seen has not had the tall tailwheel though, neither is the mottle quite typical but that's difficult to be certain off given the damage.

[DR40eghs]

Originally Posted by Heuser

I am not 100% sure if this is really Hooks a/c; Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report No.265 mentiones a Bf 109 G-14 "blue 17" with "black, white, black stripes" in the area "S of Eschweiler" among some other losses of I. and IV./JG 4 a/c on 03.12.1944.

Dear Alex,

the crash location is Eschweiler-Scherpenseel, a small village close to and administrative part of Eschweiler, located approx. 4 km SSE of Eschweiler town center.
So, the report 265 corresponds nicely with the fotos in question, and with the other losses of IV./JG 4 on 3 Dec 44 (crashlanding Scheufele at Grosshau, Magdanz: Stolberg, Beck: Roetgen, Liebich: Roetgen, Obermüller: SSE Düren, Wienhusen: SW Roetgen ...).

Please note: there are two places called "Scherpenseel"
- the first: a part of Übach-Palenberg (~ 16 km N Aachen City center)
- the second: 4 km S of Eschweiler and ~ 15 km E of Aachen City Center
Hooks crash location was the second.

By coincidence is spent 3 month of my life, in fact the basic training of my national Service (W-15) at Eschweiler. Although almost 35 years ago (summer 1978) - i remember the areay quite well.

Regards,
Uwe (Karlsruhe/Germany)