Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.

[ssg keay]

Czesc Kris, I will send the photos to a friend who knows the Lancaster much better then I do. I think the part is from the area near the engine and a pump, like you said, but alas, I am an expert on the P-47, not Lanc.

Danny

[KrisJG3]

Tanks Danny - I will wait for answer. We want ID crashed crew - probably KIA all members.

[ssg keay]

Kris, PD261 is not the right plane, wrong manufacturer. My friend asked for you to take close-up photos of the two data plates. Also, he thinks you should send info of the two data plates to the Royal Air Force Museum in England.

Greetings from Bavaria, Danny

[Observer1940]

Hello

You say:-

Technical Data plates:

1) Bigger plate size (50 x 70 mm):

TYPE: 683
DWG. No.: I G 1372
SERIAL No.: R3/LB/185 560
CAPACITY: PORT
INSPECTION: R3 45H
MAKER'S No.: -----
DATE: ------

2) Small plate size (63 x 31 mm):

IDD RR
DRG No.: R3/211-3
SERIAL No.: 1425
INSPECTION: No.: ALV 70 R

The Inspection number will usually be maker / manufacturer and 45 will likely be the Inspector.

See Manufacturer codes:-

http://spitfirespares.co.uk/reference3.html

See also the following thread:-

http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/17733.php

Inspection number
The forum thread not only has a list of various Manufacturer Codes by Elliott Smock of the Rebuild a Whitley Project, but a post by a former Inspector of another aircraft type the AW Whitley, regarding the Inspection number on the plate ...

"For example, mine was AW99A Meaning Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft Co. My personal number being 99."

You know where you found the parts (the location) and therefore you must look for, find and trace all local records in local and national Archives of the country where the crash occurred and also in the archives of the country of the occupying forces, at Town Hall, District Administration, Archives, Museums, Libraries and other places of deposit which were created at the time of the crash to trace a record of a crash at that location. Fire service, Undertakers, local Town Authority, your equivalent to our War Committee, Military units, Police, Observers in the area, etc., etc., to get even a date (or several dates) to start or begin with!

I would never trust books or internet entirely, most are not detailed enough to give a field/nearest road location anyway and my research in original documents and cross checks with MoD, indicate that some authors have copied the errors and mistakes of others.

This may surprise you, but my detailed research in early WW2 for several August 1940 days, day and day/night Ops in ORBs of Squadrons, Groups and Commands, indicate that the dates on some Loss Cards upon which Chorley based some of his bomber losses are incorrect! The MoD were unable to explain why some Loss Cards had wrong dates, or had been recorded on non-standard Loss Cards.

[KrisJG3]

Observer1940 thanks for answer. With local archive is not so easy please remember that before May 1945 here was Germany and after 1945 till now Poland. More of doc. were evacuated , burned/destroyed or lost.

Danny please sent to me e-mail ( Huball25@poczta.fm ) - I am going to sent You back bigger photos with 2 plates.

Crash of plane was found by another persons - not me. But I am interested to agree aircraft details.

On base link with codes from Observer1940 I can say:

683 = Lancaster (All Mks)
R3 = Avro
------------------------------
6D Aircraft Gaseous Apparatus and Ancillary Equipment
from one valve info:
Mk IX/AA * or ...X/AA* or XX/AA* (not easy to read)
6D/221
36281/42
and code : A crown M (Air Ministry) + I think inspection stamp in circle: A.V. 26
-----------------------------------------------------------
another detail data from plate:

Type No.: C7120 (circle with T) Issue no.: 3
Serial No.: CWC/ AOC/ 133315 (Material: Steel)
See: https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...79437141320850
----------------------------------------------------------
another detail data from technical plate similar as above:

Type No.: 7108 Issue no.: 5
Serial No.: damage...123845 (only last numbers exist)(Material:Aluminium)
See: https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...79464559194626
-----------------------------------------------

Somebody know how much Lancastes AVRO was destroyed in period 1944/45 in area Politz/Stettin ( I think this one was from 1944) ? Just now list should be smaller.

[ssg keay]

Kris, to my knowledge only 2 Avro built Lancasters crashed in that area between 44 and 45. Danny

[KrisJG3]

So good message Danny - please inform me about serial numbers for both Lancasters AVRO.

For sure only one of them (I think) had following OX-valve/ regulator with serial number as below:

6D Aircraft Gaseous Apparatus and Ancillary Equipment
6D = Oxygen Equipment

from one oxygen valve/regulator info:
Mk IX/AA * or ...X/AA* or XX/AA* (not easy to read) ---- Mk IX

Early or late oxygen regulator

6D/221
36281/42 (early OX regulator - made in 1942 ??? )

See:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...45330298706962

https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...45344755172626


Question:

Is it possible that here can be a/c serial number ( I do not belive but ... ?) :

https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...71393160888834

31 July 1944 / JB746 /Lancaster/ 103 Sqn del'd 11-12-43/ PM-I/, SOC 4-8-44 /Shot Down /Day/ Le Havre / Unknown

I think it should be:
Avro Type 683 – Lancaster Mk. I

but which one (the moust ammo with year of production 1944 ) ???

Best wishes from Pommern,

Kris

[KrisJG3]

One think is interested.

Here say:

Lancaster KC-H was used on the second raid on the Tirpitz
Lancaster overload tank gauge (Instruments pg 8 Fuel gauges 10)
Fitted to 617 Sdr Lancaster's on the Tirpitz raid
Part number: FG 504

this code FG 504 is shown here:

http://spitfirespares.co.uk/Website%...20overload.jpg


This is an overload fuel gauge used on Lancaster's. 617 & 9 Sdr Lancaster's used these fuel gauges when very long flights were required.

Source:
http://spitfirespares.co.uk/Instrume...auges%208.html

============

The same code is on the our ac plate:
504 FG
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...45324053777506

Is it possible that in our case is:
Lancaster AVRO Type: 683 from Squadron 617 or 619 ????

[MW Giles]

It looks like you have a Lancaster and probably one made by Avro

All the little parts (fuel gauges etc) will not be marked with the serial number of the aircraft, just their own stamps and marks as part of the manufacturing process that made them, so --746 is a red herring

Where there are dates on things (bullets are particularly useful for this) what is the youngest item you have? If there is anything with a 45 on it then your aircraft cannot have crashed in 44.

The overload tank gauge just means it is a Lancaster with an overload tank, I do not think that is definitive for even identifying a squadron

To positively identify it you need to find an Avro serial number for the a/c or one for the Merlin engines. Sometimes you can link the serial number for the engine to the airframe through the various RAF forms, however engine changes were common and the paperwork does not always match.

Unless the site is very remote, there must be someone locally (even with all the turmoil on 1945) that remembers the crash and what happened to the crew. Are you sure they are not still on board?

Get a copy of Chorley for 1944 and 1945, get a list of all the a/c it could be and then start eliminating them one by one

Regards

Martin

[KrisJG3]

Hello Martin,

Thanks for answer.

Acc. to:
"...Where there are dates on things (bullets are particularly useful for this) what is the youngest item you have? If there is anything with a 45 on it then your aircraft cannot have crashed in 44. ..."

- I know about it but I must meet once again with friend and check it ( for sure was: 43 and 44) .

"...what happened to the crew. Are you sure they are not still on board ? ..."

- I think it is possible .... but could be that German people taken them and made grave in the nearest of crash place (in forest).

Crash area is very big - I think ca. 100-200 [m2]. Probably a/c went down vertically and exploded.

Only this parts could help us ID - this is what my collegue have found in crashe place:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...CMLC9p2Bv4CvCg