Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

[harrison987]

Interesting stuff...

But does any of this really matter?

I mean...what is the point?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by harrison987

Interesting stuff...

But does any of this really matter?

I mean...what is the point?

To me it matters to establish what really happened. I realise it won't change the outcome of the war but we may understand it a little better.

[Broncazonk]

Was Hartmann's appearance, presence and success known to the Soviet's? I seem to remember reading that the Russians placed a reward (bounty) on Hartmann's life, and his aircraft. Can this be confirmed in Soviet records? Also, was Hartmann's uniquely painted aircraft known to the Soviets? Can this be confirmed by Soviet or German sources?

If a bounty on Hartmann's life was a fact, and if the Soviets knew what Hartmann's aircraft looked like, this would suggest that Hartmann was the subject of, "special attention." That special attention may have involved specifically denying him credit in Soviet loss reports. We all know the power and the role that political officers and the NKVD played in the Soviet war effort, and that role included EXACTLY the kind of morale and counter propaganda campaign that would supersede the need to file accurate loss reports.

Given Hartmann's profile in Germany and the Eastern Front, Hartmann was almost certainly given "special attention" by somebody on the Soviet side.

On the other hand, Hartmann may have been ordered to over-claim as a part of a German/Luftwaffe propaganda effort. This is a distinct possibility as well.

One thing is certain:

Hartmann walked into Soviet captivity rather knowingly and more voluntarily than anyone else. He was given several opportunities to go to JV-44. He also disobeyed General Seidemann who ordered Hartmann and Graf to fly to the British sector to avoid capture by Soviet forces. Hartmann refused on multiple occasions to abandon his men who were not given the option to go west. (Not being critical, but others went West when given the same opportunity.)

Bronc

[HGabor]

Not sure about the 'special attention', but I think Hartmann himself did not affect the soviet loss records at all. the soviets very often mixed the Fw 190s and Bf 109s in the air (based on distance, poor visibility, etc.) so I do not think they saw any special markings if they missed even the plane. Especially, because Hartmann usually attacked from the back and disappeared quickly - that's why he had serious problems observing the ultimate fate of his attacked opponents. The soviets had quarterly plane 'inventories' in their mechanical papers, planes couldn't just disappear from those lists without showing up in some units' loss reports, etc.

[Broncazonk]

Originally Posted by HGabor

The soviets had quarterly plane 'inventories' in their mechanical papers, planes couldn't just disappear from those lists without showing up in some units' loss reports, etc.

So so simple for a NKVD/political officer to turn an air combat loss into another kind of loss. "Loss due to ground fire," is a well known method. Operational losses turn in to training losses from time to time, no?

The mere existence of the Soviet commissar/political officer/NKVD directorate makes any and all Soviet records suspect. And I'm including weather reports. A Soviet record reporting that the sun came up one morning is suspect on it's face given the historically documented propaganda power and influence of the Soviet commissar/political officer/NKVD.

Bronc

[Nikita Egorov]

Returning to Khazanov article. Lazarev lost his life in midair collision with Pe-2 on March 1, 1945. Sytov possibly, but Trenkel's claim at 10.35 seems to be preferable.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Regarding that Hartmann was well regarded in the Bundesluftwaffe. He was known to be unpopular during WW2. I would assume it was because his overclaiming was suspected/known by his comrades, though there could be other reasons. All his claims seemed to be at altitude(thus lack of the most difficult and dangerous Sowiet aircraft to shout down, the Il-2), whereas all his comrades were involved in the more dangerous low-level/ground attack combat as per routine. Perhaps his comrades were jealous. Toliver/Constable by memory stated that Fritz Obleser had a problem with Hartmann's claims, this is just not true. Also not true is that Hartmann never lost a wingman.

Those that have been sited as overclaimers have a certain pattern to there claims, which Hartmann has i.e many days of heavy/huge numbers, but a few claimers like this were actually honest. Almost all the honest pilots made few daily claims, or just a few heavy ones.....like Helmut Lipfert.

Personally I think Hartmann was a lousy officer who's rank far outreached his leadership ability....perhaps another possible reason for being unpopular.

Are we sure we have all the Russian losses before actually matching-up/or not
Hartmann's claims?. I would say that a honest claimer should have two-thirds of his claims actually crash, the rest he thought had crashed. In fact would it not be his wingmans secondary job to see the crash and record it?

Friedrich Geisshardt was unpopular, but not for his claiming.

I have noticed that the leaders of scoring at any particular time over Russia seem to be the overclaimers, it would appear they would do as much overclaiming as was necessary to he the leader I guess. Also having a usual wingman must be a must, unless the whole staffel was on the fiddle and had some kind of system. Saying this having studied many logbook pilots usually flew as a Rotte or Schwarm, rarely a whole Staffel.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[mars]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

Was Hartmann's appearance, presence and success known to the Soviet's? I seem to remember reading that the Russians placed a reward (bounty) on Hartmann's life, and his aircraft. Can this be confirmed in Soviet records? Also, was Hartmann's uniquely painted aircraft known to the Soviets? Can this be confirmed by Soviet or German sources?

If a bounty on Hartmann's life was a fact, and if the Soviets knew what Hartmann's aircraft looked like, this would suggest that Hartmann was the subject of, "special attention." That special attention may have involved specifically denying him credit in Soviet loss reports. We all know the power and the role that political officers and the NKVD played in the Soviet war effort, and that role included EXACTLY the kind of morale and counter propaganda campaign that would supersede the need to file accurate loss reports.

Given Hartmann's profile in Germany and the Eastern Front, Hartmann was almost certainly given "special attention" by somebody on the Soviet side.

On the other hand, Hartmann may have been ordered to over-claim as a part of a German/Luftwaffe propaganda effort. This is a distinct possibility as well.

One thing is certain:

Hartmann walked into Soviet captivity rather knowingly and more voluntarily than anyone else. He was given several opportunities to go to JV-44. He also disobeyed General Seidemann who ordered Hartmann and Graf to fly to the British sector to avoid capture by Soviet forces. Hartmann refused on multiple occasions to abandon his men who were not given the option to go west. (Not being critical, but others went West when given the same opportunity.)

Bronc

Usually anything relate to a "bounty" specially put on some ace's head is nothing but myth, and remember the air war of WWII was so large on scale that the achivement of individual aces, not matter how talent they were, would attract few attention from otherside, for example RAF pilots who fought in North Africa had no knowledge of Hans-Joachim Marseille in the war time, and RAF bomber command crews did not know anything about Helmut Lent or Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

If a bounty on Hartmann's life was a fact

That is just a myth raised by Toliver/Constable, in fact. A piece of war propaganda, nothing more.