Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

[HGabor]

Not sure about the 'special attention', but I think Hartmann himself did not affect the soviet loss records at all. the soviets very often mixed the Fw 190s and Bf 109s in the air (based on distance, poor visibility, etc.) so I do not think they saw any special markings if they missed even the plane. Especially, because Hartmann usually attacked from the back and disappeared quickly - that's why he had serious problems observing the ultimate fate of his attacked opponents. The soviets had quarterly plane 'inventories' in their mechanical papers, planes couldn't just disappear from those lists without showing up in some units' loss reports, etc.

[Broncazonk]

Originally Posted by HGabor

The soviets had quarterly plane 'inventories' in their mechanical papers, planes couldn't just disappear from those lists without showing up in some units' loss reports, etc.

So so simple for a NKVD/political officer to turn an air combat loss into another kind of loss. "Loss due to ground fire," is a well known method. Operational losses turn in to training losses from time to time, no?

The mere existence of the Soviet commissar/political officer/NKVD directorate makes any and all Soviet records suspect. And I'm including weather reports. A Soviet record reporting that the sun came up one morning is suspect on it's face given the historically documented propaganda power and influence of the Soviet commissar/political officer/NKVD.

Bronc

[Nikita Egorov]

Returning to Khazanov article. Lazarev lost his life in midair collision with Pe-2 on March 1, 1945. Sytov possibly, but Trenkel's claim at 10.35 seems to be preferable.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Regarding that Hartmann was well regarded in the Bundesluftwaffe. He was known to be unpopular during WW2. I would assume it was because his overclaiming was suspected/known by his comrades, though there could be other reasons. All his claims seemed to be at altitude(thus lack of the most difficult and dangerous Sowiet aircraft to shout down, the Il-2), whereas all his comrades were involved in the more dangerous low-level/ground attack combat as per routine. Perhaps his comrades were jealous. Toliver/Constable by memory stated that Fritz Obleser had a problem with Hartmann's claims, this is just not true. Also not true is that Hartmann never lost a wingman.

Those that have been sited as overclaimers have a certain pattern to there claims, which Hartmann has i.e many days of heavy/huge numbers, but a few claimers like this were actually honest. Almost all the honest pilots made few daily claims, or just a few heavy ones.....like Helmut Lipfert.

Personally I think Hartmann was a lousy officer who's rank far outreached his leadership ability....perhaps another possible reason for being unpopular.

Are we sure we have all the Russian losses before actually matching-up/or not
Hartmann's claims?. I would say that a honest claimer should have two-thirds of his claims actually crash, the rest he thought had crashed. In fact would it not be his wingmans secondary job to see the crash and record it?

Friedrich Geisshardt was unpopular, but not for his claiming.

I have noticed that the leaders of scoring at any particular time over Russia seem to be the overclaimers, it would appear they would do as much overclaiming as was necessary to he the leader I guess. Also having a usual wingman must be a must, unless the whole staffel was on the fiddle and had some kind of system. Saying this having studied many logbook pilots usually flew as a Rotte or Schwarm, rarely a whole Staffel.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[HGabor]

Johannes,

That is the whole key: we must have ALL confirmed soviet losses before we start the analysis. And that's exactly the case for Hungary! It is a relative small area, so perfect for the project. For certain months we could obtain ALL soviet losses from ALL soviet air units (5, 17 VA documents from TsAMO archives, Russia), fighting over Hungary (daytime) that time. This made the whole claim-scanning possible in which Hartmann failed biiiiiiiiiiig time, and Lipfert passed with A+. (Sorry to mention these two "typical" pilots all the time, but certainly there are many others with their +/- scores too on the scale.)

Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Hi everyone, so here's a collation of what we have so far. Please note that there are some discrepancies/duplications in such things as kill numbers (especially No.307). If these can be sorted out, I am happy to re-type and re-post the information.

Nick

Hartmann's known claims/Overclaims:


No.1, IL-2 on 5.11.42/1205 over PQ 44793, Digora (Caucasus) @ 400m: 7 GShAP, 4 VA. No further details known
.
No.2, OVERCLAIM 27.01.1943 11:30 MiG-1


No.3, LaGG-3 on 9.2.43/0655-0750 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86722) @ 1000m: 66 IAP lost St.Lt. Ilya Vladimirovich Khludenev KIA this date (was this him?)


No.4, Boston on 10.2.43/0615 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86671) @ 3200m: Was this from 45 BAP? They suffered some losses this date


No. 7, P-39 on 15.4.43/1533 over Taman: 45 IAP, either 41-38451 of Starishiy Leytenant M Petrov or 42-4606 of Serzhant Bezbabnov (but see Waldemar Eyrich's claim). Both KIA


No.16, U-2 on 15.5.43/1210 over Titarovskaya station (Taman) (PQ 86544) @ low altitude: HQ 278 IAD. Leytenant Vladimir Ivanovich Ershov (senior pilot)[KIA] 274 IAP (3 IAK) and passenger Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Ivanovich Kryukov [MIA] 43 IAP (3 IAK)


No. 22, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0350: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)


No. 23, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0352: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)


No. 29, LaGG on 8.7.43/0905 over Ugrim (PQ 61223) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA


No. 30: LaGG on 8.7.43/0910 over Ugrim (PQ 61221) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA


No. 31, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1805 over Ugrim (PQ 62872) @ 2500m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)


No. 32, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1825 over Ugrim (PQ 61134) @ 1000m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)


No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA


No. 52, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1019 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61391) @ 3500m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA


No. 53, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1030 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61331) @ 2000m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA


No. 89: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0607 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged


No. 90: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0608 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged


No. 94, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 5000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return


No. 95, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 4000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return


No. 96, "LaGG" on 19.9.43/1440 over PQ 58614 @ 1200m: Likely a Yak of 812 IAP. Lt Georgiy Pavlovich Churakov KIA (came down Andreyevka, landed safely but found dead in his aircraft by Soviet troops the following day. Best match by location, timing a little out)


Nos. 98-100, 2 LaGGs and a P-39 on 20.9.43: 288 IAD, 17 VA lost at least one Yak-7 this date


Nos. 106 & 107, P-39s on 26.9.43: 9 GIAD (16, 100 and 104 GIAPs), 8 VA. Misidentification or overclaiming, no losses this day


No. 112, P-39 on 29.9.43/0855 over Zaporozhe (PQ 58682) @ 4000m: Probably Maj. Vladimir Grigorievich Semenishin HSU, 2 x OL, ORB and OPW 1st Class of 104 GIAP KIA


No. 120, P-39 on 2.10.43/1140 over Novo Zaporozhe (PQ 58 581) @ 5000m: possibly Podpolkovnik (?) Arkadiy F Kovachevich of 9 GIAP. Baled out near Melitopol and survived


Nos. 163-165, P-39s on 8.1.44: 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 and 304 IAD). These claims are believed to be against 69 GIAP, 304 IAD. Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev damaged and returned safely (three bullet holes) and one other damaged and bellylanded


No. 192, P-39 on 4.2.44/1140: 129 GIAP. St.Lt. Bekashonk and his wingman (Ml.Lt. Koshel'kov). Overclaiming, no actual loss


No. 193, P-39 on 26.2.44/0908: 129 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Leontiya Zadiraki baled out and returned safely


No. 194, P-39 on 26.2.44/0916: 205 IAD or 304 IAD. Overclaiming, no other losses at this time


No. 195-199, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov baled out safely, Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Arsenovich Zinchenko (HSU) KIA and Leytenant Mamin also baled out. Ml.Lt. Demchenko's P-39 was slightly damaged and Ml.Lt. Motuzko's was sent to PARM for major repairs after bellylanding 12km S of Kirovograd)


Nos. 200 & 201, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. These were likely the P-39 of Leytenant Lusto, only damaged or another claim for Vodolazhskiy (also claimed by Rall and Bachnick)


No. 202: 438 IAP P-39 on 26.2.44/1440. This was likely Leytenant Oleynikov, known to have baled out safely 10 minutes after Vodolazhskiy did


No. 212-217, LaGGs on 5.5.44: One of these may have been Leytenant Ivanov of 402 IAP, 265 IAD. KIA this date, attributed to Lipfert or Hartmann


Nos 249 & 250, P-39s on 4.6.44: During 4th sortie, Hartmann and Birkner were jumped by 2 Aircobras, Hartmann claimed both. They were flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both returned home unscathed


No. 264, P-51C-5-NT Mustang on 24.6.44/0950: 42-103599/42 of 318th FS, 325th FG. Joseph W Harper MIA (Diekmann and Birkner claimed as well)


Nos. 296, 299 & 300, P-39s on 24.8.44: 9 GIAD. Very likely overclaiming, only one loss this date: an aircraft that was separated from its parent formation, pilot MIA


No. 304, Yak-9 on 27.10.44/1016 over Nyregynaza (PQ 18265) @ 2500m: 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut


305: OVERCLAIM - 27.10.1944 10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m


No. 306?, La-5 on 1.11.44/1435: Overclaiming. Only loss of an La-5 in Hartmann's area of operations this date is attributable to Hungarian pilot Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy (NOT in 5 VA for sure, no data from 8 VA) 31.10.1944 15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799


No. 307: OVERCLAIM - 1.11.1944 14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m



No. 307: OVERCLAIM - 7.11.1944 13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m


No. 307: Yak-7 on 7.11.44/1335 over PQ 98563 @ 1000m: Possibly HQ of 13 GIAD, serial perhaps 32(292)14. gv.l-t Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov. 6 Yaks at 1400m in the Lajosmizse area against 4 ‘Fw 190’s. Frontal attack, the Yak burst into flames. Pilot baled out WIA


No. 308, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1410: Possibly Yak-9T 0215354 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev


309: OVERCLAIM - 13.11.1944 14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m


310: ??? - 13.11.1944 14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m Kotlyar Yak-1b other claims in same area and time frame as well


No. 311, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1425: Possibly 11186 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar


311: OVERCLAIM - 13.11.1944 14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m


312: OVERCLAIM - 14.11.1944 11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m


313: OVERCLAIM - 14.11.1944 11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m - Only La-5 loss at 15:20, but soviets: downed by flak and 2 Fw 190s!


314: OVERCLAIM - 16.11.1944 8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m


315: ~OK - 16.11.1944 8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m


316: OVERCLAIM - 17.11.1944 14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m - Hungarian Capt. Pottyondy claimed a Boston at Ocsa where the soviets confirmed their loss, his German wingman, Hartmann claimed another Boston closer to Budapest where soviets confirmed none. NO MORE Boston loss this day, other than a ferry accident at the Romanian border...


No. 317, Boston on 17.11.44/1425 over PQ 98584 @ 2000m: A definite Soviet Boston loss to fighters this date came from 453 BAP, 218 BAD, 5 VA


No. 317: OVERCLAIM - 22.11.1944 11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m



No. 318: OK - 22.11.1944 11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m


No. 319, La-5 on 22.11.44/1145 over PQ 98452 @ 4500m: Possibly 177 GIAP, 14 GIAD, 5 VA. Pilot Kovrigin shot down in dogfight in Hatvan area


Nos. 320 & 321, IL-2s on 22.11.45: Possibly 809 ShAP, 264 ShAD, 5 VA. Overclaiming, only one loss: crew of Polunin-Kuptsov, crashlanded 7km NW of Csany. Repaired and returned to service (attributed by Soviet sources to AAA).


No. 328: OVERCLAIM - 5.12.1944 13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m


No. 329: OVERCLAIM - 5.12.1944 13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m (One 486 IAP La-5FN loss (S/N: 39212724, Snagovskii KIA) at 11:55 over Ercsi- too big difference. A recce. La-5 pair against 6 Fw 190s. 2nd La-5FN (S/N: 39211776) of 177 GvIAP (pilot: Vereshak) was downed around 14:05 in dogfight/flak.)


No. 330: OVERCLAIM - 9.12.1944 13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m

No. 331: ???, probably OVERCLAIM - 9.12.1944 13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m (2 Yak-9 losses of 513 IAP, but one was a landing accident in soft soil at 13:20 after IL-2 escort (Fokin, Yak-9D, S/N: 19166063), the other one (Fedosov, Yak-9M, S/N: 2515361) was downed at 13:50 by flak. 513 IAP also lost one of their Po-2 messenger biplanes: S/N: 640314, pilot: Durakhov. All 3 pilots were OK. 150 GvIAP lost a Yak-3 after Baracska mission at 1000 m against 20 Fw 190s on landing at their airfield: S/N: 2329218 at 14:50, pilot: Kamanian was unhurt.)


No. 352, Yak on 8.5.45: 2 VA, 5 VA or 17 VA, pilot said to be KIA but possibly actually an overclaim



Hope this helps....

[HGabor]

Thanks Nick,
Great job. Still working on it....
Gabor