A-20 17 VA

[HGabor]

I checked my lists, but unfortunately my very first 511 ORAP Pe-2 loss record is for crashlanded Pe-2 on, or around September 11, 1944. (S/N: 2/150, engines: 325-576 and 63-31, авария, сдан в 109 БАО на запчасти.)

I have their losses AFTER this date, but no records for May-June.

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by HGabor

I checked my lists, but unfortunately my very first 511 ORAP Pe-2 loss record is for crashlanded Pe-2 on, or around September 11, 1944. (S/N: 2/150, engines: 325-576 and 63-31, авария, сдан в 109 БАО на запчасти.)

I have their losses AFTER this date, but no records for May-June.

Hi Gabor,

Do you have any to share that were the result of German fighter action?

...You know how much this fascinates me

[HGabor]

Hi Nick,

Yes, I have a few, but most of them just: "crashlanded", or "missing". Hard to determine the actual cause. It is a lot easier to check by date and see if there was any losses.

I have the full list of planes in 511 ORAP for May 1, 1945 by AC serials, engine serials & tail numbers (markings):

24 Pe-2s
2 UPe-2s (trainers)
1 Po-2 (messenger) biplane


For other dates I have the full list of 511 ORAP planes by serials only. For the same serials I assume markings (and perhaps one, or both engines) were the same as on May 1, 1945:

October 1, 1944: 24 Pe-2, 1 UPe-2, 3 Po-2
January 1, 1945: 24 Pe-2, 1 UPe-2
April 1, 1945: 25 Pe-2

(Lots of changes, transfers, etc. Same no. of planes does not mean they had no losses. Eg. 24 planes - 3 losses + 3 new planes are still = 24!)

Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Hi Nick,

Yes, I have a few, but most of them just: "crashlanded", or "missing". Hard to determine the actual cause. It is a lot easier to check by date and see if there was any losses.

I have the full list of planes in 511 ORAP for May 1, 1945 by AC serials, engine serials & tail numbers (markings):

24 Pe-2s
2 UPe-2s (trainers)
1 Po-2 (messenger) biplane


For other dates I have the full list of 511 ORAP planes by serials only:

October 1, 1944: 24 Pe-2, 1 UPe-2, 3 Po-2
January 1, 1945: 24 Pe-2, 1 UPe-2
April 1, 1945: 25 Pe-2

(Lots of changes, transfers, etc.)

Gabor

Cheers, Gabor,

Can you perhaps confirm:

Heinrich Tammen's claim of 21.9.44/1715?
Birkner's claim of 17.10.44/1500?
Barkhorn claimed one one on 24.11.44 but no timing is given...
Manfred Leisebein on 18.1.45/1500?

Nick

[HGabor]

Hi Nick,

September 21, 1944: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. Closest record: September 13, 1944 - flak, burned
October 17, 1944: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. Closes record: October 26, 1944 - missing
November 24, 1944: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. Closest records: November 21 - crashlanding, a Po-2!!!, S/N: 640732, and December 3, 1944 - crashlanding.
January 18, 1945: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. One write off, however, on January 20, 1945:

511 ORAP Pe-2, S/N: 15/248, engines: 425-1372 and 41-4931 was "shot down" by fighters! No casualty listed, plane written off by January 20, 1945, again by 26th - probably delayed record after mechanical inspection at airfield.

Note, that 39 ORAP and 48 OGvRAP GK also flew Pe-2s (and Pe-3s) along with some Yak-9D, Yak-9R, A-20B planes in the area!
Gabor

[HGabor]

Nick,

Please note, that dates of mechanical write-offs might not match the dates of reported action losses found in combat diaries! Mechanical dates might have some days of delay depends on inspection time, attempted repairs, etc.

Anyways, 511 ORAP Pe-2s which are listed in the October 1, 1944 inventory, but NOT listed in the January 1, 1945 list are:

12/248 - MIA, 26-31.10.44 report - Кудинов Иван Васильевич crew on October 26, 1944
12/339 - crashlanded, 31.12.1944 report - by December 3, 1944
13/228 - crashlanded, 31.12.1944 report - Козлов crew by December 22, 1944
16/153 - wear and tear, 01-15.11.1944 report - by November 9, 1944
19/260 - crashlanded, 31.12.1944 report - by December 23, 1944

511 ORAP Pe-2s which are listed on January 1, 1945, but not listed on October 1, 1944 yet:

9/341 - из 15 ОРЗАП, 16-25.10.44 report - by October 17, 1944


I AM SORRY, on October 1, 1944: 511 ORAP had 24 Pe-2s but on January 1, 1945 they had ONLY 20 Pe-2s, NOT 24!!!!! On April 1, 1945 they had 25 Pe-2s.

So after October 1, 1944: 24-5+1=20 (for January 1, 1945.)
Gabor

[HGabor]

Nick,

511 ORAP Pe-2s which were still listed on January 1, 1945, but were not listed on April 1, 1945. If the Pe-2 loss/claim on January 18, 1945 belonged to the 511 ORAP and was total loss, then it had to be one of these four:

11/196 - MIA, 16.01.1945 report, MIA by January 6, 1945, Еремин Виталий Михайлович crew, ОБД - 6.1.45, отчет 16.1.45
15/248 - Lost in dogfight by 20.01.1945, В ОБД не нашел. Списан 20.01.1945!!! - This one?????
2/229 - crashlanded, 20-25.03.1945, списаны 31.3.45 на рулежке произошел пожар, техник Сораколетов
8/250 - в 260 САМ ОдВО, left the unit, 15-20.03.1945 report

511 ORAP Pe-2s which are listed on April 1, 1945, but not listed on January 1, 1945 yet:

11/363
13/363
13/385
14/382
16/379
17/377
20/383
4/377
6/377

So between January 1 - April 1, 1945: 20-4+9=25 (Pe-2s.)

Gabor

[HGabor]

Hi Nick,
I reviewed the other Pe-2 and Pe-3 losses in the 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Front areas beside the 511 ORAP for late 1944-1945:

48 OGvRAP GK Pe-2 and Pe-3 losses:
(This was a "mobile" recce. unit, subordinated straight to the VVS HQ., supporting the most critical areas. They had Yak-9D, B-25C and A-20C losses as well, these are just the Pe-2s, Pe-3s.)

Pe-2 on August 20, 1944
Pe-2 on November 13, 1944
Pe-2 on December 9, 1944
Pe-2 on December 24, 1944
Pe-3 on January 22, 1945
Pe-2 on February 4, 1945
Pe-3 on February 19, 1945
Pe-3 on March 1, 1945
Pe-2 on March 17, 1945
Pe-3 on April 25, 1945
Pe-2 on April 27, 1945
Pe-2 on May 5, 1945

17 VA, 39 ORAP Pe-2 losses:
(They also had Yak-9D, Yak-9M and Yak-9R losses as well).

Pe-2 on December 11, 1944
Pe-2 on December 16, 1944
Pe-2 on January 3, 1945
Pe-2 on January 4, 1945
Pe-2 on January 16, 1945
Pe-2 on January 23, 1945
Pe-2 on January 29, 1945
Pe-2 on January 31, 1945
Pe-2 on February 4, 1945
Pe-2 on March 1, 1945
Pe-2 on March 20, 1945
Pe-2 on April 26, 1945
Pe-2 on April 30, 1945.

Cheers,
Gabor