Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942

[BruceMk11]

Are you suggesting guilt by association, Franek?

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by BruceMk11

Are you suggesting guilt by association, Franek?

I am just looking for a possible explanation. I consider it a possibility, but not a fact as such. I am aware of various cases, when attacked aircraft were claimed destroyed, but actually returned to base. One notable case was when both engaged pilots claimed victories, but both of them returned home unscathed. I do recall my late RAF friend mentioned, that there were some pilots claiming victories, when in clouds, and nobody could seen them. He did not reveal any name though, he said it is gone. Still, I have in my mind a case of Ian Gleed, who in April 1941 scored a German flying boat with another pilot. His combat report is quite graphic, but there was no such loss noted. I have seen it tied to a Ju 88 loss, but the latter was claimed elsewhere by another pilot.
How to explain that?

[Chris Goss]

I presume you are talking about Ian "Widge" Gleed of 87 Sqn? Shores says Do 18 on 24 May 1941 and then Foreman says a Do 17 which he presumes to have been a II./KG 77 Ju 88 (German records state this crash-landed at Le Culot with 40% Flak damage and two wounded crew) which shot down a Spitfire! Gleed & Thorogood's claim was off the Scillies at 0730 hrs while the claim for a Spitfire by a Bordfunker was 40 km north of Swansea in the afternoon. No seaplanes were lost this day

[Franek Grabowski]

Yes, I think it was the one. I recall Gleed described the crash of the aircraft in the sea. As you note, there is no evidence of that, including possible blue on blue.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D7441867

I believe that there was a claim for the Ju 88 by a Polish pilot, possibly rejected by the FC. Sorry, I do not remember the details.

[Chris Goss]

When I checked NA I could not see the full report but it is mentioned in F540. As to the Ju 88, being based at Beauvais in France to the east and more regularly used for night ops, why would it be operating by day over west Wales and then land at Le Culot in Belgium with the cause being stated as flak not fighters?

[BruceMk11]

Franek, I really wouldn't be too concerned about the lack of cine camera, nor that Lewis was flying as No. 2 to Paddy Finucane.

Whilst it's hard to be completely certain, as obviously none of us was present, it seems that Lewis's claim 'holds water'.

He seems to be the only pilot of RAF FC to claim that day, 20/2/42, and claims between Bomber and Coastal Commands together were apparently just a single Ju 88 damaged (off the Shetlands).

As we know, Lewis claimed a Fw 190 over the Channel, and Luftwaffe records indicate the loss of a Bf 109 in a dogfight over the 'Kanal'. Surely just a case of mistaken identity.

Let me know if you think I'm missing something.

Bruce

[Stig Jarlevik]

Indeed Bruce

That is my own thinking as well.
The Fw 190 was still a newbie in the west and presumably everyone wanted to claim
one, a bit like the Luftwaffe rather claimed a Spitfire than a Hurricane.

Why not start a topic about "false claims" made by RAF (and the Russians) on the Allied section?
But perhaps the general consensus is that all the Allied boys were honest?

However I am still waiting for someone kind enough to put me straight with regard
to what is wrong with Foreman and his claim version this day.
I simply don't want to mix it with the British National Archives, since last
time I tried I ended up going in circle after circle always ending up where I
begun.....

Cheers
Stig

[Chris Goss]

Stig: I am afraid I cannot clarify whey John appears to have got this wrong. One author I know did not realise the printers had missed out a whole page which made the rest of the chapter read incorrectly. All I can say is the book, which was published in 2005, says one thing, the combat reports and F540 say something else

[Stig Jarlevik]

Yes Chris, thanks.

I understand that, but what I am interested in is to try and correct what
Foreman says, so if you could just summarize what the reports and F540 says
I would be most grateful

Cheers
Stig

[Franek Grabowski]

Bruce
Please, check where Le Havre and Dunkirk is. This is not a simple mistaken identity, unless a German pilot popped to a Duty Free. That is the point.

Stig
Gleed claimed a flying boat and IIIRC he described that the flying boat landed on sea and then it was finished. No such loss is recorded.

Chris
I just vaguely remember that there was a claim filed for Ju 88 that day, and the report survived but was rejected or not processed. Since I read about that a few years ago, and this was not my research, I do not remember details.