Erich Hartmann: 352 victories or... 80?

[Kari Lumppio]

Dear Christer!

When you write about Soviet combat losses is it combat losses (=recorded expressly as such) or combat losses + "did not return" ?

"Did not return" inevitably contains also noncombat losses.


Regards,
Kari

PS I really would like to know what famous authors do avoid this forum because of the reasons you site? I have always been too plain-language speaking, but would like to think that at least I am not scaring anyone away.

[Christer Bergström]

When you write about Soviet combat losses is it combat losses (=recorded expressly as such) or combat losses + "did not return" ?

Krivosheyev's work on Soviet losses isn't that detailed when it deals with all aircraft losses in WW II.

"Did not return" inevitably contains also noncombat losses.

Of course. Krivosheyev's figures probably contain that cathegory as well. Do you find it plausible to assume that 65% of all combat losses during the whole war in fact were accidents which occurred over enemy territory when there was no "friendly witness" to see the circumstances? I don't think so. That was my main point. I think you understood that.

I really would like to know what famous authors do avoid this forum because of the reasons you site?

Well, suppose they would not like me to list their names here? Suppose I choose to respect their integrity? Suppose you make your own guesswork?

I have always been too plain-language speaking, but would like to think that at least I am not scaring anyone away.

I think you understand that I was not talking about being frank, but that I was talking about desperate personal attacks on the verge of - and sometimes crossing the border of - slander, with the clear purpose of bringing down the personal reputation of a person as a person. It all stems from envy. I think it is obvious to everyone here that envy plays a certain role in several posts on TOCH, and that some of the most obsessed people here reveal their envy through such desperate posts.

Only a few minutes ago, I again received two e-mails from people who urged me to refrain from talking to people on TOCH because it is a free-fire zone for envious mudslingers, and they think I should not allow myself to become a target to such obsessed people. I think they are right.

[Kari Lumppio]

Hej!

My guestion of the Soviet losses stemmed from the fact that the "did not return" category losses are often of the same level as combat losses. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that more than half or so of the "did not return" were caused of loss of orientation, bad weather, loosing instrument in clouds etc.

Juri Rybin has done extensive work of the Northern airwar. Valtonen's book gives numerous examples from late 1944 where German claims well exceed the real Soviet losses. The same is true vice versa and Rybin takes a lot of flak from his Russian colleagues because he has also written so. Mombeek's JG5 book uses (I guess) data from the same source and again there are many cases of german claims without real losses (or "no data found"). Was JG 5 the only Luftwaffe unit overclaiming? If II/JG54 did not overclaim then FinnAF nor Finnish AAA did not shoot down any Soviet plane during the Summer 1944 Soviet offensives. Should I believe that?

IMO there has to be discrepancy of the combined total of Luftwaffe claims Christer gave and the total what was submitted from the unit level. Is the total claims number correct and where is it derived from? Has Luftwaffe higher level corrected the claims to correlate with the real Soviet loss numbers? That would procide a circular reference. You are the expert here and I would like to learn more.

Taking FinnAF as analoque, it seems higher echelons were well aware of overclaiming but did not take measures against that (and why would they? to raise spirit of the corps?). It looks to me that only when the kill race went overboard spring 1943 some action was taken to reduce the overclaiming (with some success). My interpretation is that this was done to avoid unnecessary aircraft/pilot losses because of the "hunting sport".

Cheers,
Kari

PS About the famous authors missing from this forum. You suggest that I make my own guesswork. Frankly, I do not have the faintest idea of what authors you are talking about. That was why I was asking the first place. I was just curious as I would like to know what I am missing. OK with me if you want to keep your secrets.

[Kutscha]

I only see some hugely over inflated ego of their own self importance with a rather large insecurity paranoria thrown in for good measure, who does much whinning like a spoilt child.

I don't think someone has to worry about desperate people ruining their reputation for they are doing such a good job of it all by themself. Did such a good job of it on another board he had his name replaced with 'user deleted by request'.

[Christer Bergström]

Soviet losses stemmed from the fact that the "did not return" category losses are often of the same level as combat losses. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that more than half or so of the "did not return" were caused of loss of orientation, bad weather, loosing instrument in clouds etc.

Was JG 5 the only Luftwaffe unit overclaiming?

If II/JG54 did not overclaim

Is there a discrepancy of the combined total of Luftwaffe claims Christer gave and the total what was submitted from the unit level?

Is the total claims number correct and where is it derived from?

Kari, you have very good questions, they deserve an answer, and I can give you the answers.

But I'm afraid there are too many trolls here - too many people focused on my person instead of the subject as such - so I will leave the discussion. Drop me an e-mail instead, and I'll send you a personal reply. (But don't expect me to give you any names; I will stick to the WW II related questions.)

[Boandlgramer]

a lot of cross reading in this thead.
no reason to become angry , christer .
not everybody is a troll.


maybe another try:
from your post.

German day fighter combat losses in "the West" or over Germany April 1944: 574 (including approximately 70 % to US fighters, an assumption based on extrapolated statistics for a number of selected Geschwader).

were these 574 fighters shot down in the air only and we have to add about the same number lost due accident ?
as graham wrote: accidents made up as many losses as aerial combat

were the german fighter losses in the west in april about 1100 ac ?
or was the accident rate compared to the combat rate even higher than 1: 1 , due the poor training of the new pilots ?

[Boandlgramer]

btw.

these are not MY numbers.
i took them from here:

http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afhra/w...d_pdf/t100.pdf

[Christer Bergström]

Boandlgramer, of course I agree on the troll issue. I am avoiding the irritating kids which use this forum as a playground, and I instead send my replies in personal messages to the serious people here who have asked me questions and not yet received answers. Check your Personal message inbox, Boandlgramer.

MB and other serious people, now I think you understand why I prefer that you send me an e-mail when you have questions.

[Juha]

hello Kari
surely the JG 5 wasn't the only JG overclaiming but IMHO it was rather extreme case. On that Finnish AF case, as You know Luukkanen, the CO of LeLv 34, was against the reining of the "hunting" because he was afraid that it would undermain the agressiveness of his pilots. IMHO he rightly thought that the agressiveness was one of the main ingredients of good fighter pilot but in this case the higher echelons were probably right, it wasn't very productive to try to "hunt" I-153s with Bf 109Gs over such a well defended place like Lavansaari. Especially for the FAF which was entirely dependent from Germany for resupply of combat capable fighters.

On claim accuracy, in west one problem are the air-gunners, their claims were heavily inflated but they shot down a lot of planes and one must figure out some sort of estimete of their share before it is possible to begin calculate an estimate on the accuracy of Allied fighter pilots claims.

Juha