RLM colours please.

[Evgeny Velichko]

If You have PhotoShop, look this colour swatch:

It also showing "different" colors 74 and 75, wich is most dobtfull now. Usually most modellers use "distorted" 74 and 75.

74 as "Dark gray" and 75 as "Medium Gray".

But they forget that 74 was "Green Gray" and 75 was "Grey Violet"

You may find correct in this palette.

[Grzegorz Cisek]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

I do not think RLM 79 was used at all. I believe there were two distinguished camouflages, one following Finnish pattern with their colours, and another using RLM 70, 71 and 02 colours. I believe that tannish colour of 02 on known colour photos is due to light of sun low over horizon.

I agree with Franek. I've studied a lot of pictures, including many in color, for 10 years and I am almost sure that RLM 79 was not used on Eastern Front with the exeption of planes which had this color in time of delivery. Bf 109F for JG 5 or FW 190F-8 from SG 4 were good examples of that. But if I see a model of Emil Lang's FW 190A-5 black 7 painted with sand colors I can only smile.

[amiers]

Originally Posted by Grzegorz Cisek

I agree with Franek. I've studied a lot of pictures, including many in color, for 10 years and I am almost sure that RLM 79 was not used on Eastern Front with the exeption of planes which had this color in time of delivery. Bf 109F for JG 5 or FW 190F-8 from SG 4 were good examples of that. But if I see a model of Emil Lang's FW 190A-5 black 7 painted with sand colors I can only smile.

ok now im confused! if Rlm 79 wasnt used on the eastern front what are the correct colours for the 109 i started this thread about?

[Evgeny Velichko]

RLM 70 (or 71)/02/76, with RLM 04 on engine cowling and FIE, and white markings

[Franek Grabowski]

RLM 70 (or 71)/02/65, with RLM 04 on engine cowling and FIE, and white markings

Are you sure it is not in Finnish colours?

It also showing "different" colors 74 and 75, wich is most dobtfull now. Usually most modellers use "distorted" 74 and 75.

74 as "Dark gray" and 75 as "Medium Gray".

But they forget that 74 was "Green Gray" and 75 was "Grey Violet"

Have you ever seen an original sample of the above mentioned colours? I am also told that Me 109s surviving in Finland are painted with original 74/75 paints, so hardly distorted.

I've studied a lot of pictures, including many in color, for 10 years and I am almost sure that RLM 79 was not used on Eastern Front with the exeption of planes which had this color in time of delivery. Bf 109F for JG 5 or FW 190F-8 from SG 4 were good examples of that.

I would like to see any proof of use of 79 on JG5 aircraft. I believe they were completely overpainted when diverted to Finland with standard 74/75/76.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Originally Posted by Grzegorz Cisek

I agree with Franek. I've studied a lot of pictures, including many in color, for 10 years and I am almost sure that RLM 79 was not used on Eastern Front with the exeption of planes which had this color in time of delivery. Bf 109F for JG 5 or FW 190F-8 from SG 4 were good examples of that. But if I see a model of Emil Lang's FW 190A-5 black 7 painted with sand colors I can only smile.

IMHO that scheme, used on Bf109F-4 of JG 5 and JG 3, not contain RLM 79 but RLM 02, together with 74 and 75 for upper. See attach. This is example of JG 3 aircraft, and JG 5 received aircrafts with the identical camouflage.

About strange colours of JG 54's aircrafts.

There is 3 suggestions:

1. JG 54 used captured Soviet colours.

I explained in previous posts.

2. JG 54 used colours, borrowed from Finnish units when JG 54 stated in Finnish airfields.

To transffer several hundreds of kilograms of paint could not be result of "partnership between unit comansers", but could be result of "Partnership between Official Goverments", with confirming documents e.t.c. There was only one act documented - transferring a paint FROM GERMANY TO FINNLAND (RLM 74/75/76) to use to repair/repaint Finnish Bf109G's.

3. JG 54 mixed colours to made new ones.

Useless, because Luftwaffe already had many colours for uppersurfaces:
RLM 70, 71, 02, 74, 75.

For that landscape for uppersurfases 70 (or/together 71)/02 with 76 on undersurfases whas the most usefull.

[Kari Lumppio]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

To transffer several hundreds of kilograms of paint could not be result of "partnership between unit comansers", but could be result of "Partnership between Official Goverments", with confirming documents e.t.c. There was only one act documented - transferring a paint FROM GERMANY TO FINNLAND (RLM 74/75/76) to use to repair/repaint Finnish Bf109G's.

Hello!

First thanks for the Remont book, Evgeny.

I have not seen a single piece of document that RLM 74/75/76 paints were delivered to Finland! And I do have searched high and low in the archives. Note, that this does necessarily have to mean that such deliveries were not made! IF you really have documents of such I very much would like to hear more.

Ikarol paints were bought from Germany, but these were apparently made to Finnish specifications colour and otherwise. Documents of purchases do survive.

NO Finnish paints were given to Germans to my knowledge. Nor is there any documents of such that I know. The Winter and Schildt & Hallberg paints were chemically different from the RLM finishing systems.


Regards,
Kari

PS Kjetil Aakra has written nice piece of text of the Afrika-coloured Bf 109 F-4 delivered to JG5. Available at www.ahs.no -site. I used to object the use RLM 79 but it seems many if not all of the F-4 subtypes delivered late Spring-Summer 1942 to JG 5 were Trop versions. What their colours became after delivery is another matter. Others will know more for sure.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

To transffer several hundreds of kilograms of paint could not be result of "partnership between unit comansers", but could be result of "Partnership between Official Goverments", with confirming documents e.t.c. There was only one act documented - transferring a paint FROM GERMANY TO FINNLAND (RLM 74/75/76) to use to repair/repaint Finnish Bf109G's.

You will hardly find information about eg. paints handed over by British to Americans. Usually such transfers were made under necessary war materials acts, so local commanders could acquire some goods not available from own stocks. Another possibility is that the aircraft were overhauled at Finnish depots, and the general agreement did not specify paints used.

NO Finnish paints were given to Germans to my knowledge. Nor is there any documents of such that I know. The Winter and Schildt & Hallberg paints were chemically different from the RLM finishing systems.

It seems Finnish colours could have been used in the early period on Me 109Fs. This could have been done locally with no paperwork surviving to the present day.

PS Kjetil Aakra has written nice piece of text of the Afrika-coloured Bf 109 F-4 delivered to JG5. Available at www.ahs.no -site. I used to object the use RLM 79 but it seems many if not all of the F-4 subtypes delivered late Spring-Summer 1942 to JG 5 were Trop versions. What their colours became after delivery is another matter. Others will know more for sure.

As noted, the thesis does not provide a single proof 79 was not overpainted before the delivery.

[robert]

And your thesis is also not confirmed with any evidence.
It will be senseless to produce trop versions painted in standard colors.

Robert

[Kari Lumppio]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

It seems Finnish colours could have been used in the early period on Me 109Fs. This could have been done locally with no paperwork surviving to the present day.

Hello!

It seems you have no knowledge of the Finnish field depot system. No it could not have been done locally without any written notice surviving. It would at least surface in the weekly reports of work done at field depots etc. Not to speak about the accounting offices because paint would have not been delivered gratis. Co-operation between Finns and Germans was not so easy and informal as you seem to think.

Regards,
Kari