RLM colours please.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Originally Posted by Grzegorz Cisek

I agree with Franek. I've studied a lot of pictures, including many in color, for 10 years and I am almost sure that RLM 79 was not used on Eastern Front with the exeption of planes which had this color in time of delivery. Bf 109F for JG 5 or FW 190F-8 from SG 4 were good examples of that. But if I see a model of Emil Lang's FW 190A-5 black 7 painted with sand colors I can only smile.

IMHO that scheme, used on Bf109F-4 of JG 5 and JG 3, not contain RLM 79 but RLM 02, together with 74 and 75 for upper. See attach. This is example of JG 3 aircraft, and JG 5 received aircrafts with the identical camouflage.

About strange colours of JG 54's aircrafts.

There is 3 suggestions:

1. JG 54 used captured Soviet colours.

I explained in previous posts.

2. JG 54 used colours, borrowed from Finnish units when JG 54 stated in Finnish airfields.

To transffer several hundreds of kilograms of paint could not be result of "partnership between unit comansers", but could be result of "Partnership between Official Goverments", with confirming documents e.t.c. There was only one act documented - transferring a paint FROM GERMANY TO FINNLAND (RLM 74/75/76) to use to repair/repaint Finnish Bf109G's.

3. JG 54 mixed colours to made new ones.

Useless, because Luftwaffe already had many colours for uppersurfaces:
RLM 70, 71, 02, 74, 75.

For that landscape for uppersurfases 70 (or/together 71)/02 with 76 on undersurfases whas the most usefull.

[Kari Lumppio]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

To transffer several hundreds of kilograms of paint could not be result of "partnership between unit comansers", but could be result of "Partnership between Official Goverments", with confirming documents e.t.c. There was only one act documented - transferring a paint FROM GERMANY TO FINNLAND (RLM 74/75/76) to use to repair/repaint Finnish Bf109G's.

Hello!

First thanks for the Remont book, Evgeny.

I have not seen a single piece of document that RLM 74/75/76 paints were delivered to Finland! And I do have searched high and low in the archives. Note, that this does necessarily have to mean that such deliveries were not made! IF you really have documents of such I very much would like to hear more.

Ikarol paints were bought from Germany, but these were apparently made to Finnish specifications colour and otherwise. Documents of purchases do survive.

NO Finnish paints were given to Germans to my knowledge. Nor is there any documents of such that I know. The Winter and Schildt & Hallberg paints were chemically different from the RLM finishing systems.


Regards,
Kari

PS Kjetil Aakra has written nice piece of text of the Afrika-coloured Bf 109 F-4 delivered to JG5. Available at www.ahs.no -site. I used to object the use RLM 79 but it seems many if not all of the F-4 subtypes delivered late Spring-Summer 1942 to JG 5 were Trop versions. What their colours became after delivery is another matter. Others will know more for sure.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

To transffer several hundreds of kilograms of paint could not be result of "partnership between unit comansers", but could be result of "Partnership between Official Goverments", with confirming documents e.t.c. There was only one act documented - transferring a paint FROM GERMANY TO FINNLAND (RLM 74/75/76) to use to repair/repaint Finnish Bf109G's.

You will hardly find information about eg. paints handed over by British to Americans. Usually such transfers were made under necessary war materials acts, so local commanders could acquire some goods not available from own stocks. Another possibility is that the aircraft were overhauled at Finnish depots, and the general agreement did not specify paints used.

NO Finnish paints were given to Germans to my knowledge. Nor is there any documents of such that I know. The Winter and Schildt & Hallberg paints were chemically different from the RLM finishing systems.

It seems Finnish colours could have been used in the early period on Me 109Fs. This could have been done locally with no paperwork surviving to the present day.

PS Kjetil Aakra has written nice piece of text of the Afrika-coloured Bf 109 F-4 delivered to JG5. Available at www.ahs.no -site. I used to object the use RLM 79 but it seems many if not all of the F-4 subtypes delivered late Spring-Summer 1942 to JG 5 were Trop versions. What their colours became after delivery is another matter. Others will know more for sure.

As noted, the thesis does not provide a single proof 79 was not overpainted before the delivery.

[robert]

And your thesis is also not confirmed with any evidence.
It will be senseless to produce trop versions painted in standard colors.

Robert

[Kari Lumppio]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

It seems Finnish colours could have been used in the early period on Me 109Fs. This could have been done locally with no paperwork surviving to the present day.

Hello!

It seems you have no knowledge of the Finnish field depot system. No it could not have been done locally without any written notice surviving. It would at least surface in the weekly reports of work done at field depots etc. Not to speak about the accounting offices because paint would have not been delivered gratis. Co-operation between Finns and Germans was not so easy and informal as you seem to think.

Regards,
Kari

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by robert

And your thesis is also not confirmed with any evidence.
It will be senseless to produce trop versions painted in standard colors.

Robert

The evidence is the German regulations of the period which required 74/75/76 colours. This has nothing to the colours, those aircraft were painted in the factory. Apart of that you seem to not to understand what trop version means.

Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio

Hello!

It seems you have no knowledge of the Finnish field depot system. No it could not have been done locally without any written notice surviving. It would at least surface in the weekly reports of work done at field depots etc. Not to speak about the accounting offices because paint would have not been delivered gratis. Co-operation between Finns and Germans was not so easy and informal as you seem to think.

Regards,
Kari

Kari, I do not mean there was no paperwork, I just only mean that this may have not survived to the present time. I cannot imagine MFAs discussing delivery of a few cans to German units. Another possibility is that the German units got extra deliveries of German produced paints for Finland. Then there will be no trace of those deliveries, I am afraid.

[Miguel]

Hi all,

I would like to add some facts to this fascinating discussion:
In this link: http://http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm you will find, in the "multimedia-videos" section, a film taken by Werner Pichon-Kalau von Hofe while Stab/JG54 was located at Trakehnen (East Prussia) in June 1941, before the start of SU's invasion.
It seems that the sported camouflage was maintained by the Stab planes Trautloft's included) for most part of 1941.
This film is discussed by Ken Merrick in the "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1935-1945" chapter seven.
Here are some lines of Merrick's text:
"...shows a camouflage of a brown and and a medium dark green..."
"Still photographs taken from the colour footage are flawed by the usual colour changes inherent in any colour process, especially one of that vintage; a colour shift is discernable to skin tones of the people..."
"Another influencing factor is is the highly reflecting surfaces produced by polishing of the entire airframe..."
"Allowing for the other factors mentioned, as well as checking the standard 02 colouring on internal sections in the engine bay area, it is possible that the colours 79 and 80 were used..."

I know that even colour photos can be tricky and, much more, stills taken from old non-professional films, but it is clear for me that, if the colours are not 79 and 80, then they are very similar to.
Of course, other opinions will be welcomed.
I have some stills taken from that film but, sorry, I am unable to include them in this post.

Regards, Saludos

[robert]

[quote=Franek Grabowski;67954]The evidence is the German regulations of the period which required 74/75/76 colours. This has nothing to the colours, those aircraft were painted in the factory. Apart of that you seem to not to understand what trop version means.

Ah so trop versions were painted in 74/75/76 colors? I only know one trop version - for Africa.
Please show us some evidences that Sandgelb was not used by F-4TR planes enlisted into I/JG3, III/JG3 and JG5. Please don`t hide them.

Robert

[Miguel]

Evgeny,

You can be perfectly right.
My comment on JG3 colours is just an assumption (that I like very much), and I am not an expert either, just an enthusiast.

I have use it as an example of the many topics that we discuss on endlessly and that perhaps could be solved if Russian historians could have a look to the archived reports on captured German planes and see if there are some comments on paint and colours.

Regards, saludos

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by robert

Ah so trop versions were painted in 74/75/76 colors?

Speaking strictly of 109s, yes, there were such aircraft.

I only know one trop version - for Africa.

You never cease to amaze me.

Please show us some evidences that Sandgelb was not used by F-4TR planes enlisted into I/JG3, III/JG3 and JG5. Please don`t hide them.

I suppose anyone can scan for you the respective Luftwaffe order on painting fighters in 74/75/76 colours. It is well known, for ages now.