Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?

[Snautzer]

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

I'll throw some oil on the fire.



What Stigler did was perhaps a grand gesture, it was also stupid. I wonder if he ever thought about the consequences of letting an experienced bomber crew have another go at bombing?! Being a gentleman in war doesn't always mean that you are doing the right thing.

I kinda agree but i cant help thinking that this would make it ok for an allied flyer to shoot the chutes.Indeed it should have been a priority. Not very heroic but it would make war time sence

[harrison987]

Well...

It is against the Rules of Armed Conflict to shoot at parachutes from planes. I know the US Pilots did it, and anyone who would do that is just as bad as the next person you want to call "evil".

Yeah..of course Stigler thought about it. He would have been SHOT ON THE SPOT IF ANYONE FOUND OUT!!! The "right decision" is ALWAYS the human decision. Hmmm...let's seee....shoot at a crippled B-17 that had 50% of it's crew dead, no one shooting at him, and running on 3 engines...or do the HUMAN thing. I would have made the same decision. if the RIGHT thing is too "kill everyone possible", then clearly a person with a viewpoint like that should never be in the military, and not someone I would want by my side.

The uprising of Nazism was due to an EXTREMELY charismatic leader, and in the beginning stages did not have the same, "immoral" values as we focus on now. Germany was falling apart, and the people needing something to believe in as people were starving and business were failing. To judge ALL Germans and pilots as all being "Nazi's" is an uneducated statement. Fear drove most of these people to stir in one direction.

John pointed out that there are far more atrocities done by other countries for longer periods of time. The British Empire had far more atrocities for a LONGER period of time than Germany ever did.

I remember a US vet telling a story about the Ardennes...

This captured US soldier (amongst others) was being marched down an icy road. A German officer kept having his Kubelwagon drive back and forth from the front of the line to the rear...honking at all US troops to move out of the way. I think he was just doing it to make them mad. After many passings, this one US troop decided, 'screw it", and did not move out of the way on one of the last many attempts. The German officer was so mad the US troop did not move, the Kubelwaagon pulled over, he went over to the US Troop, and put a gun to his head. The US troop being more angry than anything did not move an inch. As the German officer began to pull the trigger, a large "clack" from a machine gun could be heard. Looking left, he saw the MG that just cocked was atop a Panzer, and the gun was pointed at the OFFICER! It was an SS Tank. The SS officer pulled an MG on the German officer, yelling at him for having a gun to this US troops head. Don't remember what he said to him, something about how they are soldiers, not murderers.

True story.

So is that German SS officer dumb? Should he have let the other officer shoot the US troop? After-all, it was mentioned that Stiger was dumb for letting the B-17 go...what would happen if these US troops escape? CRAP!! Better kill them all now, then to have them escape and be soldiers fighting against us again!!

How do you look at the massacre in the Ardennes? Where 3 DOZENS of captured and defenceless US troops were gunned down by the SS?? Was that, "okay" because it better to kill the enemy than have them escape and fight another day?

Jesus...

No matter "what" peoples beliefs are, EVERYONE is human...that includes Hitler...and EVERYONE, no matter what they have done, is ALWAYS forgivable...

That is the main basis of Judiasm..."everything and everyone is forgivable" - that includes Hitler.

Stigler, along with MOST Germans all felt the same about the war and had the same beliefs about how WRONG Hitler was...wasn't there 50+ attempts on Hitler's life since 1942?

Mike

[Ruy Horta]

Apples and oranges.

That bomber can't be equated to either POWs or airmen in their chutes, it is as simple as that.

Would that SS Panzer have escorted a damaged enemy tank back to its own lines? No, it would probably have put in another canon round...

Again, I do not judge the man, for I have no right to do so, but I find the deed questionable, even if today we honor such a thing. What does it mean if the (remaining) crew flew other bombing missions killing countless German civilians?

perhaps I am simple, but I'd rather kill that crew than feel guilt about letting it go to fight another day...

That bomber if you like it or not was still an enemy combattant.

Have you ever heard of US fighter pilots escorting damaged enemy bombers back?

Again, there may be some room for this romantic stuff between fighter pilots, but bombers, no...I don't buy that.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by harrison987

The British Empire had far more atrocities for a LONGER period of time than Germany ever did.
Mike

I am no defender of the British Empire (or any other empire) but please, get real. Yes the British Empire lasted longer than the Third Reich (as did every European Empire I can think of right now) but, are you seriously suggesting that there was a deliberate racial extermination policy with dedicated industrial killing facilities? Or that so many people were killed in so short a time? I don't think the Belgians managed that in the Congo, even.

[Jim Oxley]

Why look for any "reasonableness" of actions in war?

War is the ultimate expression of human madness. Where else will you find young men TOLD to go out an kill as many of the enemy as possible. That it's a good, loyal, right thing to do?

Most humans are not natural killers. Most have to be conditioned and encouraged to do so - and that goes for all sides in a war, any war. It's a major reason why disgusting racial slurs like Nips, Huns, Towel heads, Wogs, Bolshie, Commie, Boche et al are so widespread in the Military. It de-humanises the enemy. Yet given that men are basically good why be surprised if, in amongst the madness, a man (eg Stigler) finds that he rebels. Even for a short time?

Everyone thought (or chose to) that they were in the right during WWII. Most do in any war. The French certainly thought so during the Revolutionary and Empire wars of the late 1700's and early 1800's.

All that aside my choice for a fairly typical Luftwaffe fighter pilot would be Heinz Knoke. An ardent believer in Germany and the Nazi Party (as the saviour's of a downtrodden country), Boy Scout and Hitler Youth, called up in October 1939 and who flew most of the war. Only to be injured in a mine explosion in a car in '44 outside a small Czech village.

[David N]

Originally Posted by Jim Oxley

Why look for any "reasonableness" of actions in war?

War is the ultimate expression of human madness. Where else will you find young men TOLD to go out an kill as many of the enemy as possible. That it's a good, loyal, right thing to do?

Most humans are not natural killers. Most have to be conditioned and encouraged to do so - and that goes for all sides in a war, any war. It's a major reason why disgusting racial slurs like Nips, Huns, Towel heads, Wogs, Bolshie, Commie, Boche et al are so widespread in the Military. It de-humanises the enemy. Yet given that men are basically good why be surprised if, in amongst the madness, a man (eg Stigler) finds that he rebels. Even for a short time?

Everyone thought (or chose to) that they were in the right during WWII. Most do in any war. The French certainly thought so during the Revolutionary and Empire wars of the late 1700's and early 1800's.

All that aside my choice for a fairly typical Luftwaffe fighter pilot would be Heinz Knoke. An ardent believer in Germany and the Nazi Party (as the saviour's of a downtrodden country), Boy Scout and Hitler Youth, called up in October 1939 and who flew most of the war. Only to be injured in a mine explosion in a car in '44 outside a small Czech village.

For a time, Heinz Knoke was considered to be the typical Luftwaffe fighter pilot. His book was published in the United States in 1954 a few months before Galland's "the First and The Last." I once looked up the review of "I Flew For The Fuhrer" in Time magazine. Time's reviewer indeed wrote that Knoke's book showed what the Luftwaffe's fighter pilots were like.

[FalkeEins]

..and it took a while to 're-educate' him post-war. His memoir hasn't been available in a German edition for years. No-one mention Rudel or Dahl or Herrmann yet...or too 'ugly' for sensibilities here....bomber/Schlacht fighter aces & commanders, innovators, aggressively pro-regime, etc etc, in trouble with the German authorities post-war (Rudel, Dahl at least) while Herrmann was a classically educated poet & 'ramming' advocate...
my choice as most 'representative' though; a Transport or Kampfflieger turned fighter 'ace' such as Stamp, Wischnewski, Gapp or Zorner...

[David N]

It has been many years since I read the Time review, but I recall it saying that Knoke's book had a "scum of Nazi notions" and that Luftwaffe fighter pilots were a "morose" bunch. On the other hand another review of "I Flew For The Fuhrer" that I found reported that American 8th Air Force veterans said that Knoke's descriptions of combat with American bombers and fighters were accurate.

[Robert Forsyth]

Originally Posted by FalkeEins

my choice as most 'representative' though; a Transport or Kampfflieger turned fighter 'ace' such as Stamp, Wischnewski, Gapp or Zorner...

August Lambert? Or August Hachtel perhaps? Both real Luftwaffe 'warriors' having transitioned from the Schlachtflieger to the Jagdwaffe and with impressive military careers.

RF

[VtwinVince]

I'm not impartial, so I'm going with my uncle, Major Dr. Albrecht Ochs, who started with the Fliegertruppe in 1917, shot an attacking fighter off the tail of his CO, Hauptmann Kastner, early in 1918 and scored a further four victories whilst CO of 9. JG 3 during the BoB. According to accounts from former members of his staffel, including Franz Achleitner, Walter Schuck, Helmut Rueffler and Ernst Boerngen, his primary concern was always the welfare of his pilots, to whom he tried to impart the wisdom gained in flying combat in two world wars. He was one of the few Luftwaffe pilots to score confirmed victories in both conflicts, and flew combat until April, 1945. Never promoted beyond Major after 1941 due to a personality conflict with then-CO Moelders, he was described by good friend Guenther Luetzow as "enorm Flugfrisch fuer sein Alter", which roughly translates to "incredibly good pilot for his age". I can't think of a better accolade. And I agree with a previous mention, Franz Stigler, whom I knew for years and who was a good comrade of my uncle's in North Africa.