Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Peter Cornwell

That may well be so Franek, but can you recommend a better source for such details ?

Peter, there were several publications on Polish AF in France, quite contrary to what certain self-acclaimed expert suggests. I will make aware of the thread Greg S, who is an author of a book on Polish fighters over France. The side note is the question of reliability of Gillet's lists.

[robert]

The book "Lost hopes" is out-of-dated and the author wants to re-write it. So please stop joking and give us these "reliable" Polish sources.

Robert

[Franek Grabowski]

The author, quite contrary to you, spend a considerable time researching the topic, gathering documents (including French ones), interviewing veterans, etc. Thus the book was based on period documents, and the fact that the author wants to make it more up to date, and to add more informations, does not mean it is out dated. There is also another author, who did extensive research on the topic, and whom you did not mention, making the only reference to Wacław Król's books.
You are neither expert, researcher nor author, so I would suggest you to shut up, and let Greg S to speak on the subject.

[robert]

And I suggest you to take a look at Gillet`s book before you will write an opinion about it you great researcher, author and expert.
I don`t see that Grzegorz used so many French, German and British documents as Gillet. Perhaps if he would do this his book would more detailed.
Your opinion is rather one-sided and even Polish sources claims that this victory was a jointly success of few pilots. So please tell us your "reliable" Polish sources claiming that this was victory of Muemler and Nowakiewicz. And better stop to offend other people before it would be too late.

[Franek Grabowski]

Grzegorz is not the only researcher of the campaign, but you fail to name the other one. Have you ever seen the latter's book? So perhaps you, the expert, do not know, that the other, apparently unreliable author credits the victory to both Muemler and Nowakiewicz, the latter omitted by Gillet? Is not it enough to start discussion about reliability of some sources? Or perhaps your point is that every Polish author and researcher is an idiot but you (assuming you are Polish)? As I wrote previously, you have nothing to add in the thread, so let's wait for Grzegorz.

[robert]

Your are funny guy really. So tell us source, which gives credit for this claim to Muemler and Nowakiewicz?
I`m afraid that this person, which have nothing to add to this thread are you!
Peter asked you for sources and you are just jerking us around.

[Greg S.]

There are two Polish sources of this combat wrote in England in 1940. Muemler wrote he destroyed Do 17 with Nowakiewicz and damaged another one alone while Nowakiewicz wrote he destroyed Do 17 alone.

I think nobody knows who really shot down Do 17 from KG 77. All pilots from GC II/7 who made the combat with group of Do 17s in this sortie should - in my opinion - have credit of destroyeing this aircraft. Overclaiming is normal during air combat. It's rather impossible to say who really shot down this aircraft today. All fireing but who hit?

The fact is the only one two-engine aircraft was shot down in this area at those time - it was von Stutterheim's Dornier. I'm sure this one was attacked by Nowakiewicz - he wrote in his raport he killed airman under parachute (he must be Fw. H. Herrig) and another one on the ground with collaboration of French pillots (he was probably von Stutterheim).

I think pilots of GC II/7 could shot up a Do 17 from KG 3 which bally landed at Trier-Euren too. But it really hard to say is it true.

[Peter Cornwell]

Thank you Greg for generating some light on the subject rather than heat.

As you know, I already have your book The Lost Hopes and, indeed, have recommended it to others on this website though I confess that I have failed to take full account of its content on occasion. Despite the retrospective nature of the evidence, from all that has been said it now seems that Nowakiewicz could be added to those GCII/7 pilots involved with the Do17s of KG77 on June 15, 1940.

One small point, you are wrong to say that von Stutterheim's Dornier was the only one to fall in the area at the time, for Fw Schweiger's aircraft also came down '30 km NW of Neufchateau' during this action. However, it was clearly not that attacked by Mumler & Co. as its crew all remained on board.

[Franek Grabowski]

Peter, as promised, you have a first hand source now. Thus the question of reliability of Gillet's book remains valid.
Robert, DIY.

[robert]

This first hand source is rather confusing. Muemler and Nowakiewicz could not destroy these at least three Do 17 alone (stab/KG77, 5./KG77 and 1./KG77, III./KG3 is questionable). Lt. Rudolf Gaude ( BO from stab/KG77 plane) recalls that he was attacked while on chute by two fighters, Josef Schwaiger from 5./KG77`s plane claims to be attacked by three French fighters, and the same formation was attacked also by GCII/2, which flown this mission together with GCII/7. Officialy there is no victory Muemler-Nowakiewicz and the reliabity of Nowakiewicz`s report is also questionable (he was not credited with individuall victory, didn`t follow his victim through whole action and Muemler is also writing something different). It`s strange that according to Polish sources out of formation of several pilots only Nowakiewicz and Muemler should engage the enemy bombers and the rest of fighters should be waiting for something? I think that actually many pilots fired at this German bombers and thus there were not individual victories. Gillet repeated this in his book because he used official French records and unit`s histories.
BTW Jiri Rajlich in his books claims that stab./KG77`s plane fell victim rather to GCII/2.

Robert