Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940

[Seaplanes]

I can add the following details:
23.07.1940 He 59N W.Nr. 838 D-AKAR of Seenotflugkdo. 4.
100%. Missing, probably shot down, while on ASR-sortie from Cherbourg.
Fw. Degel, Fw. Luppe, Gefr. Rosenthal and H.Gefr. Filz all reported missing.

28.07.1940 He 59N W.Nr. 1851 D-ASUC of Seenotflugkdo. 3.
100%. Shot down by enemy fighters during an ASR-sortie in the English Channel in pos. 51 degrees 12 mins. north and 10 degrees 40 mins east.
Oblt. Erich Chudziak, Uffz. Ernst Melzer, Uffz. Josef Baumüller and Gefr. Willi Paddags all missing. Uffz. Josef Buess rescued.

28.07.1940 He 59N W.Nr. 1989 D-AROO of Seenotflugkdo. 3.
100%. Shot down by enemy fighters while on an ASR-sortie.
Fw. Niwiadowski (F), Lt.d.R. Helmut Sandgaard (B) and Gefr. Feugel (Bf) all wounded. Gefr. Berg (Bm) and Obgefr. Nüchter both missing.

15.08.1940 He 59E W.Nr. 2606 D-AFFK of Seenotflugkdo. 4.
100% in Pl.Qu. 6997. Forced landing due to fire from a Lockheed Hudson.
Lt.z.See Siegfried Bömer (B) killed. Remaining crew injured.

[gogh]

Hi Seaplanes

I have in the LEMB stkz list D-AROO as W.Nr.1889.

Regards

Peter van Gogh

[Peter Cornwell]

This is a request for clarification on certain points of detail raised in this thread that I have followed with interest. Currently I have the following SNFKdo losses listed on the dates shown:

July 20, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 1 Heinkel He59. Abandoned by crew 25 miles south of Selsey during rescue mission following attempts by Green Section of No.601 Squadron (F/O T.E. Hubbard, P/O M.D. Doulton, and P/O T. Grier) to shepherd inland 7.20 p.m. Four NCOs baled out and all missing. Aircraft 100% write-off.

July 20, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 4 Heinkel He59 (0838). Shot down by P/O J.R. Urwin-Mann of No.238 Squadron during air-sea rescue mission three miles off Cherbourg 3.15 p.m. FF Fw Herbert Degel killed, BO Fw Gustav Luppe, BF Gefr John-Werner Rosenthal, and BM Hptgefr Peter Filz all missing. Aircraft D-AKAR 100% write-off.
The body of Herbert Degel was reported washed ashore in France on August 20.


July 27, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 3 Heinkel He59 (1989). Shot down in the Channel during air-sea rescue mission 10 miles north-east of Dover by Hurricanes of No.615 Squadron (S/L J.R. Kayll, F/O P. Collard, F/O R.D. Pexton, P/O P.H. Hugo, P/O S.J. Madle, and P/O D.H. Hone) 7.00 p.m. FF Oberlt Erich Chudziak, BO Uffz Ernst Mälzer, BM Uffz Josef Baumiller, and BS Gefr Willi Paddags all missing, BF Uffz Josef Bühs rescued wounded. Aircraft D-AROO 100% write-off.


July 28, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 3 Heinkel He59N (1851). Shot down by Sgt J. Robinson of No.111 Squadron during rescue mission and crash-landed on water ten miles west of Boulogne 3.05 p.m. BM Hptgefr Richard Nüchter and BS Gefr Paul Berg both killed, BO Lt Helmut Sandgaard, FF Georg Niwiadomski, and BF Obergefr Ludwig Fengel all rescued wounded. Aircraft D-ASUC 100% write-off.

July 28, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 1 Heinkel He59N. Landed on sea 15 km west of Boulogne to assist crippled He59 (D-ASUC) of SeenotflugKdo.3 and severely damaged in attack by P/O H.M. Ferriss of No.111 Squadron 3.15 p.m. BO Lt Hermann Wählke and BF Fw Gerhard Kahl both rescued wounded, rest of crew rescued unhurt. Aircraft 60% damaged - write-off.

I appreciate that some of this differs significantly from what has gone before & I am anxious to correct any errors in my understanding. So my question is, does anyone hold any contemporary documentation such as KTBs or particularly NVMs that either supports or contradicts this version of events ? If you can assist, by PM or otherwise, then many thanks.

[John Vasco]

Bruce,
Brilliant explanation. Game, set and match on that particular issue.

[ju55dk]

Just to show the matter from the point of the Luftwaffe. They were aware that the Red-Cross marked maschines probably did not fall under the Geneva-Convention at the time. But they did try to live up to it by strictly forbidding any form of reporting that did not have anything to do with rescue.
See attached copy from Seenotdienst Nord.

Junker

[Brian]

Hi Junker and others

Any chance of an English translation of the report, please.

Cheers
Brian

[RT]

Infantrymen running from an enemy advance even if they have discarded their weapons are still fired on as are tank crews jumping from destroyed tanks. It is quite logical to seek to kill enemy aircrew who otherwise will return to attack ones country although not a choice everyone would make.
with the slight difference that when the SND plane appears , battle is over , it seems that this case hv to be compare with action of sanitary services in the field , noone take excuse of the fact that the salvaged wounded will probably be in action later to shot at these men, seems to be the original cause of the red-cross building,
WW2 move day after day to an "unlimited" war, shooting at ambulance planes seems to be a typical down-step from civilized war, giving rationnal reasons to explain that means that some other down-step are very near

remi

[Seaplanes]

Dear Peter

One thing is for sure, the loss reports for July 1940 are confusing to say the least. My information is mainly from the following contemporary documents:
KTB for General der Luftwaffe beim Oberkommando der Marine
KTB for Oberquartiemeiser/General der Luftwaffe beim Oberkommando der Marine
KTB for Seenotzentrale (Luft) Nord
Loss list from Gen.Qu. 6. Abt.
I have had no access to the NVM reports.
In addition I have noted info from previous postings on this forum.
Since I made my last posting, I have found that one of the aircraft reported lost on 28.07.40 actually was shot down on 27.07.40. This from a radio intecept at 00.05 on 28.07. with info that a white seaplane had ceashed into the sea and exploded on impact.
I believe that only one aircraft was lost on 20.07., one on 27.07. and one on 28.07.40.
I do have information about the He 59 that was sent off to assist D-ASUC on 28.07. My info says that the plane was damaged, no percentage given, by a british fighter and that two crewmembers were injured. I have not seen a loss report that can identify this aircraft.
What is the source for your information ?

It would be great to get these things correct once and for all.

[Peter Cornwell]

Seaplanes,

Thanks for the clarification. As you say, the records are a somewhat confusing but I feel that we are very close to nailing these losses once and for all.

Agreed there was only one loss on July 20, 1940. The original entry in the QMG Returns (#4 of 22.7.40) was duplicated (#18 of 3.8.40) and later rescinded 25.10.40. But my question remains, is there any document that confirms this was indeed an SNFKdo.1 loss rather than SNFKdo.4 and what time it occurred ? There are two RAF claims on the day that could relate.

Yes, I was confident that the loss of Oberlt Chudziak and crew was on July 27 and subject of later reporting in the QMG Returns. Finally, the casualties to SNFKdo.1 on July 28, 1940, are recorded in the QMG Returns (#21 of 3.8.40) with additional details provided via Winfried Bock.

Hopefully, somebody will still come up with the KTB entries or the NVMs to resolve these questions beyond dispute. Thanks for your input and also that I received in a PM from Brian Bines.

[John Vasco]

remi,

Read Bruce's post, #36, on page 4, and that will explain all. It shows the SND aircraft did not always arrive after the battle was over, and that definite confirmation was gained that they were also doing intelligence gathering. It's not a step down from civilized war, it's a case of attacking an enemy's participating aircraft. Participating, in the sense that they are taking an active military role in the service of their country in a combat area.