2 unidentified axis losses, Kent?

[Andy Saunders]

I have to agree with Peter Cornwell in relation to the "Aircraft Casualties In Kent" book. When it appeared in print I bought a copy. It didn't stay in my book collection for very long!!

[Clint Mitchell]

Thing is the book kind of gets your hopes up as it lists several aircraft downed in my area not mentioned anywhere else. Also you wonder where they got their info. I mean they could have asked around the local areas, local eye witness reports. There are a lot of reports in the Battle of Britain Then & Now that do not give a location. Many of those must have crashed in the sea with no witnesses but some on land might have not been recorded or records lost. For instance I have an eye witness report of a HE111 coming down near Higham, Kent towards the end of Sept 1940 but for the life of me I cannot find any other info anywhere. Could it be the listing from the book mentioned in my post above (30.9.40 Higham. e/a)? Some entries in the book might have some substance but it's difficult to know which ones without cross referencing with the other BofB books.

Clint

[Peter Cornwell]

Clint,

The only casualty to match in any way those on your list took place on November 2, 1940, as follows:

5./KG76 Junkers Ju88A-1 (4159). Shot down by AA fire during night sortie to London and exploded on New Barn Farm at Southfleet 7.45 p.m. FF Oberfw Oswald Grünke, HB Oberfw Albert Vogl, and BF Uffz Martin Biller all killed, BS Uffz Erich Stumpp missing. Aircraft F1+DN 100% write-off.
What little remained of three of the crew was buried at Stone Cemetery, near Dartford, only Oswald Grünke and Albert Vogl being identifiable and buried along with one 'Unknown' who was later identified as Martin Biller - Erich Stumpp is still officially 'missing'. The identity disc of Albert Vogl and a parachute release buckle were amongst items subsequently recovered by Kent Battle of Britain Museum and now in Hawkinge Aeronautical Trust collection.

The remaining entries have no foundation in historical fact that I can see, and to have actually produced such dubious and speculative entries as late as 1990 is truly regretable, given the wealth of reliable documenation available at that time. It takes more time than I can afford at present to check such unsubstantiated nonsense so this will be my last response to queries relating to entries in 'Aircraft Casualties in Kent'.

Steve,

Only Jessen was 1 Staffel.

[Clint Mitchell]

Hi Peter

I appreciate the time you have taken to post. I am new to this Luftwaffe history/downed aircraft hobby and I only came to get interested in the subject due to my love of creating accurate profile renditions of the aircraft that crashed in my area. An artist I am, a historian I am not, but I am learning and my book collection on the subject is slowly growing. So thanks for pointing out the said books failings and in future I shall treat it's contents with much more scepticism. (That's if it is not filed under B.I.N. by then)

Thanks

Clint

[Brian Bines]

Clint, I do not know where the info. in the book came from or whether it was based on local info. In my case as a lad locals told of a Dornier Flying Pencil that crashed at BishopsCourt Chelmsford on BoB day, turned out to be a He111 in June 1940, Where I worked in the 70's long term employees told of a He111 crewman who fell to his death in the depot in 1940 in fact it was a Ju188 crewman in April 1944. To this end there was a Do17 of KG2 which crashed into a house in Chatham on 15-9-40, a Fw190 of SKG10 shot down at night 16/17-5-43 at Higham, Fw 190 of SKG 10 shot down in river Medway 21/22-6-43, and a Ju188 at Shorne on 24/25-2-44,

Brian Bines

[uckwash]

Steve Vizzard agreed this book would make a good 'foundation' upon which I could then 'build' my research, concerning Tonbridge Rural, Tonbridge & Tun.Wells losses WW2.

Apart from BoB T&N, Fighter Command Losses (N Franks) & local reportage, where else would one turn in order to assemble detailes pertaining to losses during the period 1939-40? I ask.

Having said that I'm grateful indeed for esp. Andy Saunder's & Peter's input to date.

To give you an idea. I went to a farm where a certain Hurricane crashed.
I was told that over the years the owner's father had agreeingly waved goodbye to 99% of the wreckage, to at least half a dozen (now unknown) individuals, in his field, including the engine. Where's it all gone? There're only a few suitably aged locals who can help piece events together now.

Asked where the stuff & the details went I think the farmer's father had some details, he could be contacted in heaven as it were?

I think the information was taken in this book from at least 20 sources, and the enormity of the task is such that further embelishment might have meant 3 men from Kent Aviation Historical Research Society never would have completed this truly huge project ?

Dave

[Peter Cornwell]

Originally Posted by uckwash

Apart from BoB T&N, Fighter Command Losses (N Franks) & local reportage, where else would one turn in order to assemble details pertaining to losses during the period 1939-40? I ask.

I accept that you will only be as good as your sources but the trick is to identify those you can rely upon and those that are best ignored. In order to make that choice you may well need to access surviving contemporary primary sources to satisfy yourself of the actual facts. It has been my experience that these sterile reports are often infinitely preferable to previously published accounts or even eye-witness accounts. I have already suggested Kent County Archive in Maidstone to you. This holds useful documents that would assist in your local research and your RDC may also hold similar material; ARP Incident Reports, Police Reports, Burial Registers, Coroner's Records etc. The NA(PRO) at Kew also has a wealth of documentation relating to enemy casualties in AIR2/8736-6, AIR22/266, etc etc

Originally Posted by uckwash

I think the information was taken in this book from at least 20 sources, and the enormity of the task is such that further embelishment might have meant 3 men from Kent Aviation Historical Research Society never would have completed this truly huge project ?

My comments above as to sources refers. And as someone who appreciates all too well the challenges of tackling the occasional 'huge project', I may be forgiven for appearing unimpressed by certain content of 'Aircraft Casualties in Kent' as queried elsewhere in this forum. Granted, no reference book ever produced by mere mortals will be without its share of errors, but it seems clear that little real care can have been given to substantiating the 'facts' presented in this book before its publication in 1990 when much of the information necessary was freely accessible. But it clearly provides ample scope for further in-depth research in resolving many apparent discrepancies in the historical record and I wish you every future success in doing so.

As for my popularity or otherwise, I have no idea and even less interest.

[uckwash]

Hi Peter.
Since the thread has now turned in essence into an appraisal, I need to look in more detail at what you have stated above.
I'm sure & accept you likely earned the rights to access certain bits of information.
What do I mean by that?
Well I'm refering to records, photo's & documents, not in the Public domain, but gathered in connection with excavations, by individuals, as souvenirs, or as worthy additions to Museums past or present. For some reason which I rather wonder now was sometimes once possibly financial, was almost always exclusively in connection with the Battle of Britain, & the period involved.
I accept that 'Aircraft Casualties in Kent' when published in 1990 could have leant more heavily upon your earlier commendable publication, as that by then was in print?
Why was 'A/C casualties in Kent' never completed?
Well, please tell me if my paranoia is clouding my view, because my hunch Peter is that information (not always in the public domain) pertaining to the remaining 'sites' (exclusive of BoB) will remain water tight, until they too have been sucked dry. And exhausted of all artefactual evidence, by brothers. Then as with BoB sites of interest, all will be revealed, as the sites are no longer risks as they have been sucked dry.
But from what you are saying, its not this at all.
You suggest that actually its perfectly possible, given the right approach, from outside the brotherhood, (I'm paranoid again! damn) to figure out, in these cases, as I myself am endeavouring to do, & to obtain a complete picture, (& picture's'!) potentially as good as, or, extending even beyond the scope, of what the excellently (for its day) comprehensive, factual 'Then & Now' series definately achieved, & therefore that A/c casualties was indeed a weak effort, by a group of 3 men who had not 'earnt' by correct approach, sufficient privileges to access all that was required, to make it good.

Dave

[Clint Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Brian Bines

To this end there was a Do17 of KG2 which crashed into a house in Chatham on 15-9-40, a Fw190 of SKG10 shot down at night 16/17-5-43 at Higham, Fw 190 of SKG 10 shot down in river Medway 21/22-6-43, and a Ju188 at Shorne on 24/25-2-44,

Brian Bines

Thanks for the info Brian. I presume these are entries are from the Blitz Then & Now I,II,III? I have not got round to purchasing these volumes yet. I knew about the Strood (River Medway) FW190 and I have research including the local newspaper report on the incident if you are interested? Let me know?

Clint

[uckwash]

PLEASE CAN A SEPARATE ENQUIRY BE DEALT WITH ON A NEW THREAD?

ITS VERY DISCONCERTING TO LOOK AT 10 REPLIES, 8 OF WHICH ARE REPLIES TO AN ENQUIRY REGARDING MATERIAL WHICH SHOULD STRICTLY BE DISCUSSED ON A FRESH THREAD?

(Peter C you must be very popular!)

Dave