2 unidentified axis losses, Kent?

[Brian Bines]

Clint, I do not know where the info. in the book came from or whether it was based on local info. In my case as a lad locals told of a Dornier Flying Pencil that crashed at BishopsCourt Chelmsford on BoB day, turned out to be a He111 in June 1940, Where I worked in the 70's long term employees told of a He111 crewman who fell to his death in the depot in 1940 in fact it was a Ju188 crewman in April 1944. To this end there was a Do17 of KG2 which crashed into a house in Chatham on 15-9-40, a Fw190 of SKG10 shot down at night 16/17-5-43 at Higham, Fw 190 of SKG 10 shot down in river Medway 21/22-6-43, and a Ju188 at Shorne on 24/25-2-44,

Brian Bines

[uckwash]

Steve Vizzard agreed this book would make a good 'foundation' upon which I could then 'build' my research, concerning Tonbridge Rural, Tonbridge & Tun.Wells losses WW2.

Apart from BoB T&N, Fighter Command Losses (N Franks) & local reportage, where else would one turn in order to assemble detailes pertaining to losses during the period 1939-40? I ask.

Having said that I'm grateful indeed for esp. Andy Saunder's & Peter's input to date.

To give you an idea. I went to a farm where a certain Hurricane crashed.
I was told that over the years the owner's father had agreeingly waved goodbye to 99% of the wreckage, to at least half a dozen (now unknown) individuals, in his field, including the engine. Where's it all gone? There're only a few suitably aged locals who can help piece events together now.

Asked where the stuff & the details went I think the farmer's father had some details, he could be contacted in heaven as it were?

I think the information was taken in this book from at least 20 sources, and the enormity of the task is such that further embelishment might have meant 3 men from Kent Aviation Historical Research Society never would have completed this truly huge project ?

Dave

[Peter Cornwell]

Originally Posted by uckwash

Apart from BoB T&N, Fighter Command Losses (N Franks) & local reportage, where else would one turn in order to assemble details pertaining to losses during the period 1939-40? I ask.

I accept that you will only be as good as your sources but the trick is to identify those you can rely upon and those that are best ignored. In order to make that choice you may well need to access surviving contemporary primary sources to satisfy yourself of the actual facts. It has been my experience that these sterile reports are often infinitely preferable to previously published accounts or even eye-witness accounts. I have already suggested Kent County Archive in Maidstone to you. This holds useful documents that would assist in your local research and your RDC may also hold similar material; ARP Incident Reports, Police Reports, Burial Registers, Coroner's Records etc. The NA(PRO) at Kew also has a wealth of documentation relating to enemy casualties in AIR2/8736-6, AIR22/266, etc etc

Originally Posted by uckwash

I think the information was taken in this book from at least 20 sources, and the enormity of the task is such that further embelishment might have meant 3 men from Kent Aviation Historical Research Society never would have completed this truly huge project ?

My comments above as to sources refers. And as someone who appreciates all too well the challenges of tackling the occasional 'huge project', I may be forgiven for appearing unimpressed by certain content of 'Aircraft Casualties in Kent' as queried elsewhere in this forum. Granted, no reference book ever produced by mere mortals will be without its share of errors, but it seems clear that little real care can have been given to substantiating the 'facts' presented in this book before its publication in 1990 when much of the information necessary was freely accessible. But it clearly provides ample scope for further in-depth research in resolving many apparent discrepancies in the historical record and I wish you every future success in doing so.

As for my popularity or otherwise, I have no idea and even less interest.

[Clint Mitchell]

Apologies Uckwash for the slight Hijack. (hey at least your thread was getting bumped?)

Clint

[uckwash]

Thanks chaps for taking the trouble to in part explain things better.

I've already discovered an anomaly in regards to Cebrzynski's Spitfire, which a little bit of 'ironing' of the facts could prove interesting.

In ernest I need to collect information from 'across the board' and will in time get across to Maidstone Archives too.

RAF records at Kew are great, generally accurate too. I've found local knowledge to be frequently (not exclusively) accurate, sometimes even humourous if a little 'reshuffled' with age, soon to be lost forever!

But as most of the sites reveal themselves to be of BoB vintage, very little is now left either of what passed before, by way of the weekend groups of excavators, and I'm finding it impossibly hard to locate who these people were, and in which corner of the World their earlier research findings have ended up in? Or where or how I might accost them in my quest to extract the truth.

I could bury myself deep in researching one crash site or alternatively in order to produce a bigger picture, I have had to scrape the barrel perhaps with whatever kind of methodology that is within my grasp. Remember this is Kent! the County which witnessed perhaps more arial actions during the BoB, than any other County only then to throw away at least part of the evidence

Dave

[steve sheridan]

Many thanks Peter for the confirmation reg Jessen, much earlier!

Best regs,
Steve.

[uckwash]

One further point, although I'm not sure it will hold any interest.

That is this:

Artefacts, remains & the accompanying research & findings from a/c crash sites in Kent seem often to be almost exclusively kept within the domain of a few bands of brothers? Clubs (& individuals) past & present operating during the window of opportunity that was, with metal detecting in its infancy?

Information not freely circulated, or obtainable? Therefore whilst it is easy to be disparaging about using books like 'A/c casualties in Kent' written probably mainly 'in the dark' so-to-speak 'A/c casualties in Kent' is a bloody good effort, at least as far as was possible, by a group not engaged at the time during the first 'age of opportunity'?

Lets say I was trying to write such a book, without the help & support afforded to other publications from such groups, without Internet forums, how otherwise would I get anywhere near the Scientific accuracy & factualness Peter is aluding to without any privileges that might be possibly have been afforded him in 'BoB then & Now' (of access to such data)?

If I'm wrong to think rivalry doesn't exist amongst individuals & societies of Aviation historians & archaeologists, over the sharing of information, please feel free to correct me for intuitively believing for some obscure reason is a problem.

I myself have only been following up the current line of research, a decade, so excuse me if I appear surprised. I defy any relative newcomer to break the ranks of those 'in the know'.

If all information has in fact always been available to one and all, I am indeed wrong.
Then there is, I agree, a case to be disparaging about 'A/c casualties in Kent' on the basis that very little effort was therefore expended in its preparation, and editing, to ensure that it was worth the paper that it was indeed written upon. However if there were issues relating to the above, regarding accessability of certain records, I can't blame Baxter, Owen & Baldock, for their seemingly superficial presentation, of whatever they had on hand.

Dave

[uckwash]

Hi Peter.
Since the thread has now turned in essence into an appraisal, I need to look in more detail at what you have stated above.
I'm sure & accept you likely earned the rights to access certain bits of information.
What do I mean by that?
Well I'm refering to records, photo's & documents, not in the Public domain, but gathered in connection with excavations, by individuals, as souvenirs, or as worthy additions to Museums past or present. For some reason which I rather wonder now was sometimes once possibly financial, was almost always exclusively in connection with the Battle of Britain, & the period involved.
I accept that 'Aircraft Casualties in Kent' when published in 1990 could have leant more heavily upon your earlier commendable publication, as that by then was in print?
Why was 'A/C casualties in Kent' never completed?
Well, please tell me if my paranoia is clouding my view, because my hunch Peter is that information (not always in the public domain) pertaining to the remaining 'sites' (exclusive of BoB) will remain water tight, until they too have been sucked dry. And exhausted of all artefactual evidence, by brothers. Then as with BoB sites of interest, all will be revealed, as the sites are no longer risks as they have been sucked dry.
But from what you are saying, its not this at all.
You suggest that actually its perfectly possible, given the right approach, from outside the brotherhood, (I'm paranoid again! damn) to figure out, in these cases, as I myself am endeavouring to do, & to obtain a complete picture, (& picture's'!) potentially as good as, or, extending even beyond the scope, of what the excellently (for its day) comprehensive, factual 'Then & Now' series definately achieved, & therefore that A/c casualties was indeed a weak effort, by a group of 3 men who had not 'earnt' by correct approach, sufficient privileges to access all that was required, to make it good.

Dave

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by uckwash

Hi Peter.
Since the thread has now turned in essence into an appraisal, I need to look in more detail at what you have stated above.
I'm sure & accept you likely earned the rights to access certain bits of information.
What do I mean by that?
Well I'm refering to records, photo's & documents, not in the Public domain, but gathered in connection with excavations, by individuals, as souvenirs, or as worthy additions to Museums past or present. For some reason which I rather wonder now was sometimes once possibly financial, was almost always exclusively in connection with the Battle of Britain, & the period involved.
I accept that 'Aircraft Casualties in Kent' when published in 1990 could have leant more heavily upon your earlier commendable publication, as that by then was in print?
Why was 'A/C casualties in Kent' never completed?
Well, please tell me if my paranoia is clouding my view, because my hunch Peter is that information (not always in the public domain) pertaining to the remaining 'sites' (exclusive of BoB) will remain water tight, until they too have been sucked dry. And exhausted of all artefactual evidence, by brothers. Then as with BoB sites of interest, all will be revealed, as the sites are no longer risks as they have been sucked dry.
But from what you are saying, its not this at all.
You suggest that actually its perfectly possible, given the right approach, from outside the brotherhood, (I'm paranoid again! damn) to figure out, in these cases, as I myself am endeavouring to do, & to obtain a complete picture, (& picture's'!) potentially as good as, or, extending even beyond the scope, of what the excellently (for its day) comprehensive, factual 'Then & Now' series definately achieved, & therefore that A/c casualties was indeed a weak effort, by a group of 3 men who had not 'earnt' by correct approach, sufficient privileges to access all that was required, to make it good.

Dave

I've read this ongoing discussion with interest, and feel it is time to add my views, in order to put you straight on a few things.

But first, a little paragraph on my background in research. I started in 1980, hoping to be able to find a lot more out about the 'well known but little known' Lw unit, Erprobungsgruppe 210. I knew absolutely nobody, apart from seeing names on/in books. So I started by writing to various authors via their publishers, and began to slowly garner information. Writing to Jagerblatt in 1983, I made contact with the first former member of the unit. It's then that I operated the 'GOYA' principle. GOYA = Get Off Your Arse. I attended a reunion in Germany in 1984, gathered more contacts, and things moved on from there. I trekked the length and breadth of Germany and Austria for years in pursuit of information and first-hand accounts, as did others. From the UK side of things, authors/researchers did get back in touch with me, and an ongoing exchange of information took place. It wasn't a case of 'all take and no give' from either side. Things progressed, and I was eventually able to write my book about that unit. Research continued with another researcher, which most people know about. Further books eventually followed.

Now, as for those who have carried out excavations over the years, what do you expect that they will find? I'll tell you. Lots of artifacts like bits of fuselage, wings, engines guns, etc.. The occasional W. Nr. from a Lw aircraft might come to light to confirm a particular loss and location. But do not run away with the idea that those who did/do excavations get all their information from those digs. They did their research as well, delving into archives here and abroad at undoubtedly great cost. The dig was only one part of the overall work they did in connection with their research.

I find it particularly insulting that you allude to a 'brotherhood' when in fact no such thing exists.

I find it disgusting that you see fit to call into questions the things that Peter Cornwell has pointed out to you. As for this paragraph: "...Lets say I was trying to write such a book, without the help & support afforded to other publications from such groups, without Internet forums, how otherwise would I get anywhere near the Scientific accuracy & factualness Peter is aluding to without any privileges that might be possibly have been afforded him in 'BoB then & Now' (of access to such data)?..." What privileges? Peter had no privileges. He worked his arse off over a long period of time gathering information from a host of sources, networking with other researchers regarding information. Investing an incredible amount of time and finance into his research (as all researchers do, without exception). There were no internet forums when Peter did most of his research, no e-bay from which to gather photos, either individually or collectively. Privileges? Don't make me, and others, angry with your facile, throwaway comments which do both you, and this forum, a disservice.


And to answer your question, yes, your paranoia is clouding your view.

Regarding that book, what Peter was pointing out was that the information was out there, if only the authors had bothered to undertake sufficient research to get to it (see GOYA principle, above). To not bother, and produce factually incorrect information lends itself to people pointing out the errors in the work. Nothing more, nothing less.

And to round this off, let's demolish your idea about a brotherhood once and for all. There is a major project going on at the moment (look at one of the 'sticky's at the head of the forum). This project involves people, literally, from all around the world. There is one particular person, and I will not name him, who started off with very little knowledge of the subject, but entered into the swing of things on this and other forums. Over time, his knowledge has increased tremendously through his own endeavours. He is now a reputable and valued member of this forum, and the project, and in future years his stature will grow and grow. He took the right approach you see. He didn't go after people and demand information. He entered into discussions, asked questions, proffered ideas and suggestions, and garnered information. THAT'S the way to go about things. So this statement of yours is completely blown out of the water: "I defy any relative newcomer to break the ranks of those 'in the know'." He has done it, as have others.

Ditch your idea of 'brotherhood', ditch your paranoia, and get real to the actual situation that exists.

[Clint Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Brian Bines

To this end there was a Do17 of KG2 which crashed into a house in Chatham on 15-9-40, a Fw190 of SKG10 shot down at night 16/17-5-43 at Higham, Fw 190 of SKG 10 shot down in river Medway 21/22-6-43, and a Ju188 at Shorne on 24/25-2-44,

Brian Bines

Thanks for the info Brian. I presume these are entries are from the Blitz Then & Now I,II,III? I have not got round to purchasing these volumes yet. I knew about the Strood (River Medway) FW190 and I have research including the local newspaper report on the incident if you are interested? Let me know?

Clint