Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945

[RolandF]

Thanks, Matthias, for this exceptional photos! This confirms my view that the whole Northern Bavarian a/c production and Luftwaffe complex mostly is still terra incognita for most experts.
Very interesting is the airview of the Cham-Michelsdorf site and how it takes advantage of this tiny patch of forest to conceal the production facilities. The forest is still existing, btw:
http://www.geodaten.bayern.de/Bayern...yer=DOP&step=1
I think, the K-4 photo is the proof where the "snake" camo comes from: It has to be the Mtt Bodenwöhr-Mappach and Cham-Michelsdorf production line and the Bf 109s produced here show different features in comparison to "Bürg"-Flossenbürg and Vilseck-Heringnohe prodeced K-4s like there are:

- Flossenbürg: Big W.Nr. stencil at the bottom of the rudder (my post #32), last three letters repeated crudely hand-painted at the end of the fuselage (necessary before adding the pre-fabricated tail unit)
- Cham: Small W.Nr. stencil at the top of the tailfin, last four letters repeated as a stencil at the end of the fuselage (necessary before adding the pre-fabricated tail unit)

The "snake" is obviously applied to unify the different camoes of Tail unit and fuselage. Even the brightly camoed engine cover gets some spraying in a darker tone. The question is whether Flossenbürg and Cham used different pre-fabricated fuselages (Mauthausen-Gusen?); perhaps "Bürg"-Flossenbürg had a complete independent production (Just an attempt to explain the fuselage piles). One fact is - Cham and Flossenbürg use the same tail units and engine covers - but they treat them differently.

Concerning the high W.Nr. - Schmoll doesn´t list it - Schmoll compiled his list based on production files and acceptance flight logs. Especially for Cham there might be considerable gaps towards the end of the war. We even don´t know the W.Nrn. of the Bf 109K-4s of post #32 and the production at Cham ceased earlier than at Flossenbürg.

The Fw 190D-9 interestingly shows the smaller late-war Stammkennzeichen - the Ta 152C-0 CI+XM being a well-known example for those letters.
To the right of the 2nd pic there seems to stand a damaged DC-3 transport (tailwheel or tail unit collapsed?)

Btw, I´m trying to get access to the KZ Flossenbürg archives, but this is a delicate task. It is easier to get information about the suffering people than about their products by slave-labour and you´re easily put into the wrong corner if you make a mistake...

Regards

Roland

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Hi there Roland,

Glad to read your thoughts again on this ever increasing topic. The Bodenwöhr snake pattern is a real treat on the K-4 which W.Nr looks so tantalizingly to be 3336 141....

To expand this great topic even further, a stay at the NARA would be most welcome in order to flush out all the thousands of Signal Corps pictures taken between April and Winter 1945; my bet is that many more pics are still waiting to be discovered. This would be by far the best method to rationalize all visual clues they do harbour and build up the clearest possible production pattern.

Wish you all the best for your KZ Flossenbürg archives access.

Cheers
Marc

PS: to all interested people: what do you see as a W. Nr on the blow up of this burnt out Bf 109 K-4 as kindly posted by Matthias over at LEMB?

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...showtopic=9649 post #16

[ouidjat]

Salut Marc,
Thanks first for the answer; seems it's not enough to say it's a Bf109G-6/G-14 or G-10... Hence, I never saw it before!
Regarding the WNr. I agree the Number low circle seems to be open hence a 5. BUT You can't stencil whatever letter or number with a full closed ring: the central part will fall!!! Hence the aperture. But if you look at the horizontal upper bar it's curved, not straigh: can't be a five.
At first glance I saw a 6 and definitly it's a 6.

Or it's the famous Old story of Old men we both met together, once.
Cheers,
Franck.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Re, Franck!

You're most welcome; it is one of those rare occasion where I finally get something correct with my Bf 109 guesswork...

And many thanks for your very pertinent stencilling analysis; it is very correct. I remember one great excavation I did in a VIIth century byzantine church in Umm el Rasas, Jordan where I spent weeks stencilling numbers on all the fallen architectural blocks... I got there a real "in-deptht" course on the finer point of stencils patterns ;-)))

Cheers
Marc

[RolandF]

Yes, at first glance I can see a 6141 with a slight horizontal gap to the left and eventually to the right - the "holders" of the inner circle presumably. But given the fact, that the stencil holders of any Mtt stencils I´ve checked are set out vertically according to the rules the horizontal gap points to a five, which is more likely. Unfortunately the eye sees what it wants to see and only the original copy of the photo may shed light on this problem.
Here´s the German stencil "Norm" DIN 1451 from 1947 which is identical to the 1943 standard:
http://ospublish.constantvzw.org/wp-...en_sample2.png

But I want to point you to an almost identical BF109K-4 depicted on p. 52-53 of JaPo´s "Messerschmitt Bf109K - camouflage and marking" standard. Unfortunately "snake" pattern and W.Nr. (partially) are obscured by the starboard wing, but the rest is an almost copy of 6(?)141:
- the same hasty spray of RLM 76(?) on the pre-fab rudder
- the usual prefab tailfin with stencilled blotches
- dark fuselage according to the OS-Liste
- rather bright engine cover with a high demarcation line. The caption talks about "mottling" of the cover sides, but a better photo copy depicted on p.194 of Schmoll´s Mtt factory book shows the same sloppy meandering camo sprays without interruption also seen on 6(?)141
- the visible parts of the stencilled W,Nr. (does not exclude 5800) are in the same position and have the same size like our Michelsdorf example

The caption of the original photo is "Me 109 # 5800 on yellow band with narrow red band. Munich May 1945". Indeed, the fuselage section behind ring 6 appears brighter and JaPo claim this parts - including the W.Nr. - as being taken from a G-14 as spare parts; yellow being a primer and red the filler paste covering the joints.

So my hypothesis would be as follows:
- 5800 and 6(?)141 share the same origin: the Bodenwöhr-Cham production line
- the aft part of 5800´s fuselage had been repaired (in Cham, using spares from the Bodenwöhr factory - 35km apart) due to damage of the prefabricated fuselage, but it is an original WNr. from the 335 batch. I´d exclude the G-14 theory because 6(?)141 is painted on the camo of a genuine K-4. The W.Nr. of 5800 was applied directly on a primer (maybe a late-war yellowish RLM 76). The red stripe might have been one of the ubiquitous unpainted tapes to conceal bad craftmanship
- 341 planes would have been produced between 5800 and 6141 - too much for the war´s end imho. (33)5800 is a rather high W.Nr., so (33)5141 is more probable imo.

Of course 336141 would be a sensation - maybe the original shows up...

Btw - I´ve checked the K-4 pics available to me. The medium 4-digit W.Nr. stencilled on the fuselage between bulkhead 7 and 9 is always connected with a small 6-digit W.Nr. at the top of the fin. The large 3-digit W.Nr. handpainted on the fuselage between bulkhead 6 and 8 is connected with a medium W.Nr. at the bottom of the rudder - always a question of available space.

It would be interesting if this would be a feature to distinguish Bf109s of the Bodenwöhr-Cham from those of the Flossenbürg-Vilseck production...

Your opinion?

Regards

Roland

[ouidjat]

Hi Rolland & Marc,
Yes it would be a big new; In fact, I don't want to see a 6, I'm not interesting in and I'm not prepared, yet, to check these production numbers since my notes are far to be complete. I'm not the only one, too, having read a 6. But I can accept a 5 too!! No problem, since each time I'm playing with light, contrast, each time I see a 5 or a 6. So Frankly... If production list are saying no one 336xxx have been produced, it's OK for me.
Cheers, Franck.

[masmar]

Roland, thanks a lot for your reasearch and for the pointer of the Bf109K-4 found in München-Riem. I didn't think of that one, but you are very right, it seems to be out of the same batch. The brighter colour bordering the Cockpit section points to a RLM81/82 painting, on the contrary the colours on 33 6/5 141 may be darker,like 81/83 ???. The rest of the pattern is almost identical.
It's a nice theory to use the position of the WNr. to differentiate between the K-4 production lines. I think we can already see a clear trend in this direction and maybe we'll find some more effidence for that. A really great perception!

For the WNr question, I'm already trying to get a better scan by the author, but I haven't got an answer so far. But I'll keep you all up to date.
Until I'm holding on a 5 rather then a 6 The gap breaking the rounding is way to big to be a fillet of the stencil and also the upper bar is way more horizontal than it would be with a 6. But the opinions differ on that case.

You are right 336141 would be a sensation.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Roland,

Wow, I can only bow and applaud to your brilliant W.Nr. synthesis: well done! This W.Nr variation acording to the factory involved is a big new thrill to add for all of us K-4 fans and it'll be one of the first thing I'll rush for every time I'll chance on a new K-4 pic. Simply great!

Beyond that, 5 or 6, Matthias, you are the solution - once you'll get the hoped for 300 dpi scan!

Cheers
Marc

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Roland,

Armed with the knowledge you shared with us in post #111, I scourge the publications I have; and there it is: a new Bodenwöhr- Mappach Waldwerk Bf 109 K-4. This one was published in WOTBC 4:

Proulx, M. (2007), Wings of the Black Cross 4, Eagles Edition, p. 4.

The picture of Bf 109 K-4 W.NR. 33X XXX "Yellow 5", probably belonging to II. /JG 52, was taken in Ainring in 1945 and depicts clearly the snake pattern on the lower fuselage; together with the W.Nr. set above the tail Hakenkreuz is a clear pointer, again thanks to your research, to the Bodenwöhr Mappach Waldwerk production.

Cheers
Marc

[masmar]

Hi all,
today I found the following pictures on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.de/3-Fotos-Flugzeug-...item5885a5b073
This WNr. is a in Bodenwöhr built and in Cham-Michelsdorf test flown Bf109G14 (P.Schmoll).Probably the picture shows the aircraft standing on Cham-Michelsdorf. Unfortunately I wasn't able to clearly indentify the church in the background up to now.

Marc, thank you for the pic of the Bf 109 K-4 W.NR. 33X XXX "Yellow 5". It indeed seems to be a kind of a "snake", but with the difference that it's painted much more accurate. It seem, that they used a stecil instead of spraying free-hand. Very interesting.