ANR - Holzkirchen

[ouidjat]

Hello,

let's go for a pleasant change.
Did ANR have training unit in Holzkirchen in 1944, or did ANR pilots have training flights in a German unit (same place, same period)?
If yes, which unit? Known markings? Plane type?

Thanks for any available help.

Regards, Franck.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Yo Franck,

Yes! The whole I. Gruppo Caccia after two monthes of inactivity without machines in Bergamo, was transferrred in late October 1944 first to Memmingen and then to Holzkirchen.

There, they were trained on Bf 109 G-6, G-12, G-14, G-14/AS and G-10's under the supervision of Kapitän Kanzell (no unit given). They were ordrerd back to Italy, with brand new Bf 109 G-10's in the first week of January, the journey being quite adventurous... The III. Gruppo Caccia was sent also to Holzkirchen, their trianing starting at once, but was never completed. There are a few photos depicting a Bf 109 G-14 "Weisse 7" published, as the whole story in:

D'Amico and Valentino (1985): The Messerschmitt 109 in Italian service 1943 - 1945, Monogram.

Cheers
Marc

[ouidjat]

Good morning Marc,

Very early my friend!?... OK, thanks for the info. I'm waiting something "special" concerning the markings wore by this ANR unit training in Holzkirchen... .

Maybe completely wrong but... but, but quite a coincidence.

Cheers, Franck.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann

There are a few photos depicting a Bf 109 G-14 "Weisse 7" published, as the whole story in:

D'amico and Valentino (1985): The Messerschmitt 109 in Italian service 1943 - 1945, Monogram.

Cheers
Marc

Not to mention Beale, D'Amico & Valentini (1996): Air War Italy 1944-45, Airlife and
D'Amico & Valentini, Camouflage and Markings of the Aeronautica Nazionale Republiccana, 1943-1945: A Photographic Analysis Through Speculation and Research (2005), Classic.

[ouidjat]

Hi Nick,

Maybe Marc doesn't have the book you mention? Just a guess.
I'm really looking for pictures concerning this period in ANR life; as you know I've no one book home.

I'm waiting for Santa Claus to put some scans in my email box or here in TOCH.

Thanks. Merry Christmas Nick.

Franck.

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann

Yo Franck,
... The III. Gruppo Caccia was sent also to Holzkirchen, their trianing starting at once, but was never completed. There are a few photos depicting a Bf 109 G-14 "Weisse 7" published, as the whole story in:

D'Amico and Valentino (1985): The Messerschmitt 109 in Italian service 1943 - 1945, Monogram.
Cheers
Marc

That WNr.464463 ??

Cheers, Franck.

[veltro]

Yes, the "weiss 7" seen in Holzkirchen is the same aircraft (W.Nr. 464463) found in Czech territory after the war and visible in the photo we published in our last book. It is quite astounding and unbelievable as a coincidence, but it is true...

Turning back to Holzkirchen, the only badge visible in all the images taken there (all the Bf 109s had no insignia at all and sometimes even no codes) was the following one visible on the nose of a Klemm kl.35 where Magg. Visconti was filmed before a training flight:



I would love to know the unit...

Merry Christmas to you all.

[Eric GUILLAUME]

Helllo,

This insigna seems to belong to FFS B 1
You can find a color photo in "Die Flugzeugführer Ausbildung der Deutschen Luftwaffe Band 1 by Sven Carlsen - Michael Meyer.

Merry Christmas

Eric

[ouidjat]

Hello Ferdinando & Eric,

I remember the thread - or just some posts - about that Klemm insigna...

Astounding and unbelievable are not the proper words Ferdinando. I just didn't know. I realised yesterday, only, looking at the picture that the number wasn't at the "right" place and that number style wasn't commun in Luftwaffe...
THEN; talking about that: There is another picture, blurred, we got on eBay (or US veteran sites) showing a white 6(?) with a II Gr. stroke, JG51 style... a couple of months ago. Will look for it and put it here...

Hmmm Now the hard way:
From where come this JFS.14 story I found on Net?? There was a JFS.14? If ever, this does concern the II°Gruppo, the III°Gruppo, both?

Thanks for your comments and help, and best wishes.

Franck.

[veltro]

Originally Posted by ouidjat

Astounding and unbelievable are not the proper words Ferdinando. I just didn't know. I realised yesterday, only, looking at the picture that the number wasn't at the "right" place and that number style wasn't commun in Luftwaffe...

I agree it is "almost" unbelievable, but a comparison of two images, one taken at Holzkirchen and the other in the Czech scrap dump should dissolve any doubt, as the camouflage details coincide perfectly on the two aircraft...

Originally Posted by ouidjat

Hmmm Now the hard way:
From where come this JFS.14 story I found on Net?? There was a JFS.14? If ever, this does concern the II°Gruppo, the III°Gruppo, both?

From where some incorrect data do originate is a question that if it could be always solved, would make this a perfect world, which clearly isn't...

To put things straight, it seems to me a pattern of incorrect quotings and wrong assumptions: the article of Giuseppe Grande, which is the first source, never quoted the number of any Luftwaffe training unit operating at Holzkirchen, the only mention being connected to Furth and to JG 104 which had operated from there.

Thus, the reference in the caption of the colour profile on p. 43 of the booklet "Ali Straniere in Italia- Bf 109" by Alegi-Gueli to a fictitious "Jagdfliegerschule 14" is twice wrong: first because (AFAIK) there was no such unit (the JFS started from 1 to 7) and second because the article of Grande is quoted as a source when it didn't ever report the name of such unit.

So, I think the less culpable is Stefan Wikstrom, who in a page devoted to "skins" for a flight simulator used the info coming from the last source to put it down in his text...

Summing up, unless new data do appear, the "JFS 14" should be considered a complete fake and disregarded at all.

P.S. Thanks to Eric Guillaume for his info. Unfortunately I have volume 2 only of that book...

Merry Christmas everyone.