SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943

[Brian Bines]

The Dornier Do24 Units publication shows the loss of CM+IE with pilot Uffz Paul Losing and CM+IJ as both shot down by Split. CM+IJ is confirmed on the Do24 site as shot down on the above date but no details shown. Are crew details known for these two please, I could not find them in the GQM lists ,

Brian Bines

[Seaplanes]

Two Do 24 Aircraft were reported lost this day, 1. November 1943.
6. Seenotstaffel lost Do 24T-3 W.Nr. 2104 KK+LQ when shot up by strafing enemy aircraft while moored in Spalato (Split) harbour. No casualties reported.

7. Seenotstaffel lost Do 24T-2 W.Nr. 991 GM+IJ. Shot Down by enemy aircraft during a rescue flight from Spalato (Split) harbour to Venice with 16 wounded personnel on board. The area was reported as Pl.Qu. 6451/14 Ost. All on board were killed:
Uffz. Paul Lösing (F), Hptm. Herbert Basse (B), Fw. Johann Sabatier (Bf), Uffz. Paul Baars (Bm), Uffz. Paul Feist (Bm), + 16 wounded personnel and one nurse,
(Herbert Basse was promoted to Hauptmann on 1. April 1943. None of the crewmembers mentioned above, is mentioned in the list of personnel of 7. Seenotstaffel in Horst Thürlings book about this unit. They probably all belonged to 6. Seenotstaffel. The aircraft was reported as belonging to 7. Seenotstaffel.

I would assume that these two accodents are linked in some way. Can someone give further details.

[Brian Bines]

Seaplanes, thank you very much for supplying these loss details,

Best Regards
Brian Bines

[gogh]

Source http://www.dornier24.com/ has WNr.991 as CM+IE etc.

Is this an error?

Regards
Peter van Gogh

[byron-]

Ηι.
there were not GM+I...by Seenotstaffel 7 but only CM+I...

byron

[Boris Ciglic]

W.Nr.991 was shot down by 1/Lt Stanley Lancaster of 57.FG. The other Do 24 was strafed by nine P-40's of 57.FG in Split/Spalato harbor.

Cheers,
Boris

[Seaplanes]

Thank you for additional information. Do 24 W.Nr. 991 and 992 I have with St.kz. GM+IJ and GM+IK respectively. They were the first two Do 24 delivered by SNCAN at Sartrouville outside Paris (formerly the CAMS-Potez factory) assembled mainly from parts delivered by Aviolanda. W.Nr. 991 was delivered on 30. November 1942 and 992 on 7. February 1943. The first true French-built Do 24, W.Nr. 1001 GI+GO, was delivered on 17. April 1943.
I know there are different opinions about the St.kz. of 991 and 992. Some have CM+IE and CM+IF.

[Brian Bines]

Thanks Guys for the additional information. It would seem that one Do 24 KK+LQ 2104 was strafed in the harbour and only one was shot down the aircraft of Uffz.Paul Losing. Looking at the Do24 site CM+IE wn 991(RLM 0039 ) is shown as being shot down over Spilt while CM+IS wn 996(RLM 0044) is just listed as being delivered to the Seenodienst with no other info. I could not find any other dates for incidents involving 0039 or 0044 which might have settled the matter. It would be tempting to go with CM+IE wn 991 as Losing's a/c but info. from Seaplanes is always really good ,

Regards
Brian Bines

[Stig Jarlevik]

Guys

The Do 24 site mentioned has basically all its production data from the book
Dornier 24 by Pieter van Wijngaarden and Prudent Staal.

In that book they list part of the CM+Ix STKZ twice, with different STKZ!

On pages 110 - 114 they say the following
Aviolanda built: AVIO 108 (RLM WNr 0035) to AVIO 116 (RLM WNr 0043) were CM+IA to CM+II
SNCAN assembled c/n 991 (RLM WNr 0044) was CM+IJ
Aviolanda built: AVIO 117 (RLM WNr 0045) to AVIO 132 (RLM WNr 0060) were CM+IK to CM+IZ.

On page 122 they say
RLM WNr 991 to RLM WNr 1000 were CM+IE to CM+IN

Both cannot be correct!
Why the site has opted for connecting the listed RLM WNr 991-1000 with the Aviolanda built examples and not the other way around, is something I don't know. No idea which is correct either.

To me it seems the two authors has not fully understood the production numbers they had access to and to solve it I think Seaplanes should see what his sources says. If Matti is around maybe he can check the NVM (if it exists)?

Cheers
Stig

[Seaplanes]

My Sources for the French Production at SNCAN is:
Report dated 12. December 1944 by Lieut. M.A. Moit, USMC on the Production of Dornier Do 24 Flying Boat in France. This report include a "Tableau CLE des immatriculations d'appareils Do 24 suivant". This list include the internal W.Nr. by SNCAN and the corresponding RLM W.Nr.
SNCAN W.Nr. RLM W.Nr.
1-2 991-992
3-12 1001-1010
13-17 1031-1035
18-27 1056-1065
28-32 1071-1075
33-40 1101-1108
41-47 1131-1137
48-57 1151-1160
Unfortunately the St.kz. are not listed.
The second main Source is the KTB's of Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu
monthly from september 1939 up to June 1944.

In addition to the book by Wijngaarden and Staal, there is another book containing an Aviolanda production list "Verkennen en Bewaken, Dornier Do 24K vliegbooten van de Marineluchtwaartdienst" by N. Gweldhof, s'Gravenhage 1979. Both books contain a number of clear errors.

Finally, the St.kz. in the series CM+IA to CM+IZ was used on the RLM W.Nr. 0035 to 0060, all produced by Aviolanda. I have no knowledge from contemporary documents about the internal W.Nr. apparently used by Aviolanda, or if this was made up by somebody decades ago.