German Claims in Poland 1939

[Larry Hickey]

Marius,

Yes, sending only changes or updates to your Bf110 claims for the Polish Campaign would be just fine. Likewise for any updates to the Bf109 claims, if any, in the Prien volumes, with which I'm well familiar. It turns out that only three of a reported six I./ZG 1 claims for the campaign have not yet been published. Do you have these? Do you also have any additional Luftwaffe claims info for units other than Bf109/110s?

Thanks for your assistance.

[steve sheridan]

Hi Marius,

A list of your ME110 kills or losses would indeed be very interesting, im sure.
Has you rightly say, the ME109 kills and losses have been made available to
fellow enthusiasts, via Priens excellent works on the Luftwaffe Jagdfliegerbande.
Any update on your your work would be most appreciated.

Rgs,
Steve.

[Jim P.]

The 110 stuff from Poland that I added to my files, if I remember correctly, were sent to me by Franek G. I think, and was largely extracted from Marius' work, as the author of the 2-vol. set on the PAF, Cynk I think his name is - it was a few years ago. That PAF history is pretty darned good piece work too.

[Marius]

Hi Jim,
Cynk`s book has many errors concerning the Luftwaffe details (I mean the Polish campaign). He stated about 100 destroyed German planes by Polish fighters, but after appr. 15 years of my research I actually can confirm only 40-45 (destroyed 60-100%). Cynk only operated with the GQM loss list and for example did not researched for hours of German operations or even places were the planes crashed. For example he stated about a He 111 lost in the Kutno area as a claim for 123 squadron over Warsaw (!!).

Larry,
which claims of I./ZG 1 were published?

Marius

[Larry Hickey]

Marius,

English language sources have cited six confirmed victories by Bf 110s of I./ZG 1 during the Polish Campaign. Three of these have been documented as: 6.9.40 Oblt. Walter Ehle 3./ZG 1 at 5:15 hrs (PZL 11); 7.9.40 Oblt. Victor Mölders at 16:10 hrs (PZL 37); and 7.9.40 Oblt. Ehle at 16:10 hrs (PZL 37). In addition, it is reported that Lt. Wilhelm Spies achieved two victories on unknown dates during the Polish Campaign, possibly with I./ZG 1, although his membership in that unit is uncertain. He may have been serving with I.(S)/LG 1 at that time, although I don't find them listed under that unit. A post on this board by Dean Wick some time ago said one of Spies' victories may have been on 17.9.39, but the accuracy of this is unknown to me. If Spies was in I./ZG 1, and he scored two victories, and the dates and circumstances of these can be documented, that leaves one unknown victory for I./ZG 1 to be documented during the Polish Campaign, if six is an accurate number for the unit's "confirmed" victories.

Your comments?

[Larry Hickey]

Marius,

I should have looked in the victory listing on P.207 of your history, Vol.1, as it there states that Lt. Wilhelm Spies of I./ZG 1, was awarded two victories during the Polish Campaign. However, I don't think that the details are provided within the text, nor is his Staffel identified. Do you now have that information? This summary also only accounts for five victory awards for pilots of ZG 1. Was there a six victory claim confirmed? By whom?

Thanks,

[Marius]

Hello Larry,
I./ZG 1 seem to make biggest problems. So here are the last news;

1.9.1939
I suppose 1 P.24 claim over Warsaw (perhaps "probably"), because Luftflotte 1 documents are speaking about 16 claims at all. I have found 15, so the ZG 1 claim could be the 16th. The Polish aircraft could be a P.11 of 113 eskadra (write off).
4.9.1939
In my book "Jagdflieger" you will find a P.43 claim, but perhaps it even wasn`t reported by the pilot. I think it was a Bf 110 of ZG 1 because of the serious damage to the Polish plane (P.23 of 42 eskadra) and the area of the encounter.
5.9.1939
About 13:30 hours escort sortie to Warsaw area for Ju 87 of IV.(St)/LG 1. I suppose 2 P.24 claims (112 eskadra lost here 2 P.11 and one more P.11 to Do 17M bombers of 3./KG 2).
The German documents are speaking about 20 claims for the day. I have found 18, so both claims could be numbers 19th and 20th.
6.9.1939
Olt.Ehle P.24 at 5:15 (111 eskadra 1 P.11 write off).
7.9.1939
3 P.37 of 16 eskadra shot down at 16:10. Olt. Ehle and Olt. Mölders, the third name unknown (Spies?).

In my book I wrote about an P.24 claim on 17.9.1939. In fact the Polish plane (P.11 of 132 eskadra) should have been fallen to a Do 17 crew of II./KG 3.

I am sure for 98% Lt. Spies was flying with I./ZG 1. If you have read Eimannsberger`s book for example, there is no trace of this pilot with I.(Z)/LG 1.
I am sure I./ZG 1 claimed 7 victories at all, but one of them probable. It is known that Bf 110 crews claimed in Poland 68 victories at all; I./ZG 76 - 31, I.(Z)/LG 1: 30, so there remain 7 for I./ZG 1.
The Gruppenkommandeur reported later about 6 victories over Poland, but I think he only meant the confirmed victories.

So, following claimes at the moment:
1.9. 1 P.24 probable
5.9. 2 P.24
6.9. 1 P.24 (Ehle)
7.9. 3 P.37 (Ehle,Mölders,Spies?)

I hope I have helped with my explanations. Perhaps someone could add more information?
I am still looking for log books of I./ZG 1. Can somebody help me?

Marius

[Larry Hickey]

Marius,

Thank you for the presenting the current status of your research into the claims of I./ZG 1 during the Polish Campaign. I agree that Spies almost certainly must have been flying with that unit during the PC. He certainly doesn't appear in the I.(S)/LG 1 information published by Ludwig von Eimannsberger. It seems strange that Spies' updated Knight's Cross bio in Obermeier doesn't make clear the unit he served with during the PC.

I've requested the missing information on I./ZG 1 victories during the FC on this TOCH board previously, but so far no one seems to know the answer. The history of I./ZG 1, in general, during 39-40, doesn't seem to be very well documented in surviving Luftwaffe records. I, too, would appreciate information on any logbooks from members of that unit, as well as info on any existing historical records on the unit during that period. I think John Vasco did about as good a job as was then possible telling ZG 1's history during 1940 in his Bf-110 book on the subject. There must still be more out there somewhere, however.