German Claims in Poland 1939

[Marius]

Hi Jim,
Cynk`s book has many errors concerning the Luftwaffe details (I mean the Polish campaign). He stated about 100 destroyed German planes by Polish fighters, but after appr. 15 years of my research I actually can confirm only 40-45 (destroyed 60-100%). Cynk only operated with the GQM loss list and for example did not researched for hours of German operations or even places were the planes crashed. For example he stated about a He 111 lost in the Kutno area as a claim for 123 squadron over Warsaw (!!).

Larry,
which claims of I./ZG 1 were published?

Marius

[Larry Hickey]

Marius,

English language sources have cited six confirmed victories by Bf 110s of I./ZG 1 during the Polish Campaign. Three of these have been documented as: 6.9.40 Oblt. Walter Ehle 3./ZG 1 at 5:15 hrs (PZL 11); 7.9.40 Oblt. Victor Mölders at 16:10 hrs (PZL 37); and 7.9.40 Oblt. Ehle at 16:10 hrs (PZL 37). In addition, it is reported that Lt. Wilhelm Spies achieved two victories on unknown dates during the Polish Campaign, possibly with I./ZG 1, although his membership in that unit is uncertain. He may have been serving with I.(S)/LG 1 at that time, although I don't find them listed under that unit. A post on this board by Dean Wick some time ago said one of Spies' victories may have been on 17.9.39, but the accuracy of this is unknown to me. If Spies was in I./ZG 1, and he scored two victories, and the dates and circumstances of these can be documented, that leaves one unknown victory for I./ZG 1 to be documented during the Polish Campaign, if six is an accurate number for the unit's "confirmed" victories.

Your comments?

[Larry Hickey]

Marius,

I should have looked in the victory listing on P.207 of your history, Vol.1, as it there states that Lt. Wilhelm Spies of I./ZG 1, was awarded two victories during the Polish Campaign. However, I don't think that the details are provided within the text, nor is his Staffel identified. Do you now have that information? This summary also only accounts for five victory awards for pilots of ZG 1. Was there a six victory claim confirmed? By whom?

Thanks,

[Marius]

Hello Larry,
I./ZG 1 seem to make biggest problems. So here are the last news;

1.9.1939
I suppose 1 P.24 claim over Warsaw (perhaps "probably"), because Luftflotte 1 documents are speaking about 16 claims at all. I have found 15, so the ZG 1 claim could be the 16th. The Polish aircraft could be a P.11 of 113 eskadra (write off).
4.9.1939
In my book "Jagdflieger" you will find a P.43 claim, but perhaps it even wasn`t reported by the pilot. I think it was a Bf 110 of ZG 1 because of the serious damage to the Polish plane (P.23 of 42 eskadra) and the area of the encounter.
5.9.1939
About 13:30 hours escort sortie to Warsaw area for Ju 87 of IV.(St)/LG 1. I suppose 2 P.24 claims (112 eskadra lost here 2 P.11 and one more P.11 to Do 17M bombers of 3./KG 2).
The German documents are speaking about 20 claims for the day. I have found 18, so both claims could be numbers 19th and 20th.
6.9.1939
Olt.Ehle P.24 at 5:15 (111 eskadra 1 P.11 write off).
7.9.1939
3 P.37 of 16 eskadra shot down at 16:10. Olt. Ehle and Olt. Mölders, the third name unknown (Spies?).

In my book I wrote about an P.24 claim on 17.9.1939. In fact the Polish plane (P.11 of 132 eskadra) should have been fallen to a Do 17 crew of II./KG 3.

I am sure for 98% Lt. Spies was flying with I./ZG 1. If you have read Eimannsberger`s book for example, there is no trace of this pilot with I.(Z)/LG 1.
I am sure I./ZG 1 claimed 7 victories at all, but one of them probable. It is known that Bf 110 crews claimed in Poland 68 victories at all; I./ZG 76 - 31, I.(Z)/LG 1: 30, so there remain 7 for I./ZG 1.
The Gruppenkommandeur reported later about 6 victories over Poland, but I think he only meant the confirmed victories.

So, following claimes at the moment:
1.9. 1 P.24 probable
5.9. 2 P.24
6.9. 1 P.24 (Ehle)
7.9. 3 P.37 (Ehle,Mölders,Spies?)

I hope I have helped with my explanations. Perhaps someone could add more information?
I am still looking for log books of I./ZG 1. Can somebody help me?

Marius

[Larry Hickey]

Marius,

Thank you for the presenting the current status of your research into the claims of I./ZG 1 during the Polish Campaign. I agree that Spies almost certainly must have been flying with that unit during the PC. He certainly doesn't appear in the I.(S)/LG 1 information published by Ludwig von Eimannsberger. It seems strange that Spies' updated Knight's Cross bio in Obermeier doesn't make clear the unit he served with during the PC.

I've requested the missing information on I./ZG 1 victories during the FC on this TOCH board previously, but so far no one seems to know the answer. The history of I./ZG 1, in general, during 39-40, doesn't seem to be very well documented in surviving Luftwaffe records. I, too, would appreciate information on any logbooks from members of that unit, as well as info on any existing historical records on the unit during that period. I think John Vasco did about as good a job as was then possible telling ZG 1's history during 1940 in his Bf-110 book on the subject. There must still be more out there somewhere, however.

[Larry Hickey]

Marius,

One more question that I forgot to put to you in my previous post. Do you have a prospective date for the publication of Vol. 3 of your PC history series on Schlacht and Stuka units?

The updated info on Vol. 1 (fighters) in your recently published Vol. 2 (bombers), is much appreciated, along with the very helpful maps. Your lastest bomber volume is excellent, and I recommend both volumes to all interested readers of this board who can work with the Polish language. Even if you can't read Polish, the photos and data tables alone are well worth the modest price of the books.

For board readers interested in the Luftwaffe during the Polish Campaign, Marius is also doing a series of articles on that subject, beginning with September 1st, for the Polish aviation magazine "Militaria"(www.kagero.pl). The text is in Polish, the photo captions are in both English and Polish, and there is a one-paragraph summary of the article in English at the end. These articles are also excellent soures of information, and again, even if you can't read Polish, the data tables alone are worth the price of the magazine. It caused me to order a subscription, since it appears that this will be an ongoing series for many issues to come!

Thanks Marius!!!

[Marius]

Larry,
many thanks for your reply.
I was looking for documents in our Bundesarchiv in Freiburg for several years. I think I saw all documents about the Luftwaffe in Poland presented there. So the question is what could we find outside Germany?
As I heard before some years many documents are closed in England for 65 years (?Stuka KTB`s?). What about United States? I think there is more to find in Russia, because the Russians stealed from East German territory everything that looked similar to a book.

My third book shall come out appr. in December 2005, but it lies on the publishers possibilities. There is still a lot to translate into Polish. I am writing the books in Polish, but the personal accounts etc. and experiences of the units are translated by someone other in Poland.

Yes, I am writing for "Militaria XX wieku " magazine. But also I have written a couple of articles for "Lotnictwo Wojskowe" (now "Lotnictwo"). After my last article for Lotnictwo magazine (fighter unit III/4) there were many turbulences in Poland, because I openly wrote about some manipulations made by Polish autors and fighter pilots as well (Skalski, Pniak). Some people say I am anti polish (!?), or that I have ignored Polish sources, but it isn`t true. I think these people are very disappointed and don`t want accept German archive records, which are more reliable than Polish.

Marius