Blenheim Claims - 10th May 1940

[Blenheim]

Can anyone help me with the times of Johannes Steinhoff's two claims for Blenheim kills on 10th May 1940 please? One was at Den Haag and the other was at Dusseldorf. I am trying to establish which Blenheims might have been involved but without some idea of the time of the combat I have little chance.

Thank you in advance.

[bordfunker50]

40 and 18sqn lost crews that day, 40 lost 3 in the hage area. 1 mid morning the other 2 late afternoon going by BC losses book.

M

[Blenheim]

Thank you Bordfunker50, I am aware of the Blenheim losses of those Squadrons. What I am trying to do is ascribe a Blenheim to each claim made by a Luftwaffe pilot or at least establish that it wasn't a Blenheim if no Blenheim was lost at that time.

At the moment I have a list of over six hundred claims for Blenheim kills made by more than four hundred Luftwaffe pilots (and both lists are growing). In order to identify the particular Blenheim involved in each claim, prove that it wasn't a Blenheim or establish what other aircraft it was, I need more information than I have on times and locations in some cases. So I thought I would ask about two claims on one particular and well known day to see if people out there were able to help me. Sort of dipping a toe in the water if you like.

[Chris Goss]

Accodring to Peter Cornwell's BoF T&N, Steinhoff possibly got L1405/18 Sqn at 1020 hrs near Dusseldorf but I cannot see a second claim

[Pieter H]

There are two issues with these claims.

First, all claims of ObLt Steinhoff are un-timed, which makes it difficult to verify the details. But this is my thinking:

1. the first claim of Steinhoff (his 3rd) seems to be clustered acc Prien with the two claims of Ofw Förster of the same unit, both being Fokker G-1's. This would date the claim as early morning May 10. At that time there were no Blenheims active over western Holland yet. But aircraft recognition was notoriously bad on both sides, so there is a high likelihood that the a/c claimed was not a Blenheim. The closest in terms of appearance over this theatre is then a Fokker T5, but then there are no unaccounted Fokker T5's at that time.
   Alternatively, if there is no match with the two claims of Förstner, it could be a Blenheim of No. 40 Sqn in the afternoon around 4.30-4.50 p.m. BST. At the same time these a/c also seem to be claimed by 2./ZG1.
2. the second claim at Duesseldorf seems a bit easier, and also Peter Cornwell followed this explanation. In the morning Blenheim L1405 of No. 18 Sqn was sent out to reconnoitre the Maas bridges and German crossings, and was shot down somewhere along the Dutch-German border. So from a location perspective this seems to match. Time around 09.00 BST.

The last topic is then the unit of ObLt Steinhoff. In the Tony Wood list, referring to Prien it says 11.(N)/JG26. First, this should be 11.(N)/JG2, probably a typo. But then according most sources only 10. and 12. Staffel were based on the western front in Hopsten, while 11. Staffel was at this time in Trondheim, Norway. So assuming that Steinhoff claims are correct he should be from any of the other two Staffeln. Can someone confirm? Alternatively, Steinhoff was indeed in 11., but then his claims should be over Norway.

So still some open questions.
Regards, Pieter

[robert]

Hi,

one addition: 4 Blenheim bombers of 40 Sqn had been shot down in the afternoon by 2./ZG1 and stII./ZG1 (source: FB of one of the involved pilots).

Regards

Robert

[Blenheim]

Thank you friends, for your assistance. I am sorry for my absence from this discussion for a few days, please forgive me.

It seems that for every small item of information that comes to light, it brings with it more mystery. I thank you all for your efforts and have to wonder if, in trying to identify which Blenheim might have been involved in each claim, I am taking on rather more than it is possible to resolve. I have decided that resolving Steinhoff's claims will have to be left for the moment (and perhaps for ever), but there are many more to attempt to identify.

Again, thank you for your assistance, I shall no doubt be asking about other claims soon.

[Pieter H]

Hugh, sorry we can't help you much further.
But would like to persist a bit more on the question I raised earlier:

The last topic is then the unit of ObLt Steinhoff. In the Tony Wood list, referring to Prien it says 11.(N)/JG26. First, this should be 11.(N)/JG2, probably a typo. But then according most sources only 10. and 12. Staffel were based on the western front in Hopsten, while 11. Staffel was at this time in Trondheim, Norway. So assuming that Steinhoff claims are correct he should be from any of the other two Staffeln. Can someone confirm? Alternatively, Steinhoff was indeed in 11., but then his claims should be over Norway.

Can nobody give some clarity here?

Pieter

[Kapper]

Pieter

The topic of Steinhoff in JG2 came up not long ago - see the attached thread.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=21823

In light of this earlier thread with the information supplied in this thread, makes me believe that Steinhoff was in 10(N)/JG2.

From my notes I have IV/JG2 being formed from 10(N)/JG2, 10(N)/JG26 and 10(N)/JG72 on 3rd February 1940 before becoming II./NJG1 on 25th June 1940. I have no proof of this, but I believe that when IV/JG2 was formed from 10(N)/JG2 everyone automatically assumed that this Staffel remained as 10(N)./JG2

However what if the numbering went by seniority of the sub-units i.e.

10(N)/JG26 formed prior June 1939
10(N)/JG2 formed 1st June 1939
10(N)/JG72 formed 15th July 1939

Therefore these would become 10, 11 and 12 staffel in that order.

Then 10(N)./JG26 would have became 10(N)./JG2 which would then have Steinhoff being the Staffelkapitan of 10(N)./JG2 not 11(N)./JG2. Thus the Steinhoff's signature in the other mentioned thread would've been Staffelkapitan of 10(N)./JG2 and his claims for Blenhiem in holland fits in where where this staffel was located, not in Norway with 11(N)./JG26.

This is not the confirmation you were looking for but opens the door for another possibilities.

Regards,

Craig...

[Pieter H]

Hi Craig,

Thanks a lot, and stupid me!
I've somehow always assumed that the JG26 was a typo and it should simply be JG2 in all cases of the Nagdjagd Staffeln.
However, checking Ross it is immediately clear that both JG26 and JG2 have had NJ Staffeln and that renaming took place:

10.(N)/JG2 formed 5-1939 from 10./JG131, 7-40 became 4./NJG1
11.(N)/JG2 formed 9-1939 from 11.(N)/LG2, 7-40 became 5./NJG1
12.(N)/JG2 formed 12-1939 from 10.(N)/JG26 (formed 5-39), became 6./NJG1

First order I assume Ross is accurate in this.
If I then refer to the other thread you refer to:

I have the following:
Steinhoff was Staffelkapitan of 10(N)/JG26 at the start of the War

then I would conclude that - assuming he did not move units - he was with 12.(N)/JG2 by May 1940.
The only (but still the first) question left is then why in Wood/Prien and apparently his own recollection people keep on referring to 11.(N)/JG2.
I think it is proven this unit was in Norway (many pictures).
Also, apart from the renaming of 10.(N)/JG26, most Staffeln kept consistently their number (10. and 11.) so that should not be a source for confusion.

Anyway, good step forward. Pieter