JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?

[O.Menu]

Hi !



When Laurent (ie: gibsonfndr ) ask me on private email my feeling about those 2, I answer they were probably more from JG5 than JG301 but without strong arguments, at least not enough to come yet on the board to ask you about. But well, since he open the tread I must thanks him for the pressure to work earlier than planned on the problem.



So coming back from a night reunion, I spent the rest of the night, up to 5am when my wife wake up asking for the silly man to sleep a little LOL, to finally conclude that we are really facing two airplanes from JG5!

One is ‘blue 9’ (W.Nr. 737938 ) from 12./JG5 the other is ‘chevron4’ from Stab II./JG5, (engine motor serial 339786).



Excuse me if I seems sometimes rude in the coming explanations it just to make replies shorter.



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1- JG5 got spiralled nose

Ø not a valid argument since it’s the same for JG301



2- JG5 got Eismeer badge on their port-side

Ø who told you there isn’t an Eismeer badge on those two on port-side?



3- JG5 got colored front ring blue or white

Ø who told you ‘blue9’ doesn’t have one?

Ø ‘chevron4’ is a Stab airplane so can’t get a staffel white nor blue front nose ring!



4- ‘chevron4’ is not a valid marking into JG5

Ø Wrong! ‘chevron4’ is not a valid marking into JG301! Actually JG5 keep chevron marking during all the war, and even a ‘chevron3’ marking is known in III./JG5 in 1943. On the other side when RV appears JG301 changed his chevron Stab markings for twenties ranging digits in groups and 1 to 16? numbers in Geschwader.



5- U.S. troops never saw a JG5 airplane since they fight on South Europe

Ø Same apply for JG301 airplanes since JG301 operated mostly in North-West Germany, I./JG301 ending with Hagenow then Leck airfields, the near available airfield to Norway from Germany, definitely in British sector to!



6- They are more probably from JG301 than JG5 except we find their W.Nr registered in JG5

Ø Well, W.Nr. 737939 from 9./JG5 is registered at Herdla among Luftwaffe airplanes left in Norway 10.8.45. So why not 737938 also into JG5 ? ( Source: http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/1945/werk.html )

Ø In Sq Sgnl walk around, ‘chevron4’ is thought to be a Fw 190F since there is not outer wing guns nor traces from removed ones > good their was ‘F’ model registered among Stab II./JG5 when none is known in the whole JG301!



7- Inverted fuselage bands is common inside JG301

Ø Wrong! None is known for sure up to know! The one from experten Decals is educated guess only, the photo is of pretty poor quality and my guess is that their published red band possibility is far better than the internet correction with an inverted JG301 red/yellow band.



8- III./JG5 Fw 190 must have a circle over the fuselage band

Ø Wrong! III./JG5 Fw 190 were transferred to II./JG5 in 1945 and none from the few I saw got the III./JG5 circle painted over the bands (we don’t speak about Bf 109 which had it)

Ø On the contrary, I will say that I./JG301 Fw 190 usually had a white horizontal painted over their RV!

The very few known JG 301 Fw without an horizontal bar are:

- two brand new D-9 from II./JG301 with bright RV painted from the previous day without doubt the horizontal bar will be quickly added,

- and two found in South Reich when the main unit was stationed on North: one is Fw 190A ‘yellow17’ found at Pilsen , and the other is D-9 ‘yellow or blue 15’ apparently without horizontal bar and found at Straubing, could they have been non operational aircrafts like JG301 school unit?

- perhaps a ‘blue8’ but I lack information…



9- Black is never grey on B&W photo and can’t be in the same tone as blue or red.

Ø WOA!! Please don’t repeat that again! Dusty fuselage Balken Kreutz are most often in grey tones and with reflects black could even be white! We must remember that B&W film react more to the light intensity than to the light tone (except of course orthochromatic film with yellow/red tone), and that yellow filter was of common use to make clouds visible.

Ø Look to this 2 examples they both show French MS 406, the usual aspect is blue lighter than red but sometimes blue is darker!







10- It’s more easy to add a red band in front of the yellow one if airplanes come from the JG11

Ø Arg, wrong again! Look to those two photos: JG11 got their yellow RV painted sometimes pretty large without need to paint a red one over the front part more than over the rear one, or most often a narrow yellow one is painted but near the fuselage cross so it would be easier to add the red band on the rear place !







Conclusion:

After digging the subject, to say those 2 airplanes can’t be from JG5 just because the black stripe from ‘blue 9’ looks to grey for you to be black is certainly not a valid enough assumption to convince me that they are from JG 301!

So what about you?

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Kjetil Aakra

Forward coloured band is not black (compare with fuselage cross).

For the appearance of JG 5 Geschwader ID bands see this photo:



Kjetil

Why so definite on the foward fuselage band?

Compare fuselage band to Swastika, tone is pretty similar

Balkenkreuz looks worn, paint could have suffered from exposure.

Balkenkreuz could even be an alternative to Black (though less likely IMHO).

[Kjetil Aakra]

Nice analysis, Menu, but I think you should have gone to bed sooner!

"Chevron4" is not from JG5, despite your lengthy analysis. I can give you are lot of reasons, but here are the simple ones.

1. Marking style not known from JG5
2. Geschwader ID band is not black-yellow
3. Americans are in picturee, they were not at Herdl a

That's enough to dispell your notion, believe me!

"Blue 9" is not from JG 5 bcause

1. First fuselage band is not black, see my photo! These were freshly painted on JG 5 (applied very late) and very, very black.

2. The photo is from same series as "Chevron 4" and thus not at Herdla.

Anf finally, common to both photos:

THE PHOTOS ARE NOT TAKEN AT HERDLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...where all Fw 190s from JG5 were at the end of the war!

So, to be absolutely clear, these photos do not show JG 5 machines!

Ruy, I think you misunderstood my post. I meant to say that the forward band IS black!

Regards,

Kjetil

[O.Menu]

Hi Kjetil, and thanks a lot to debate

Originally Posted by Kjetil Aakra

Nice analysis, Menu, but I think you should have gone to bed sooner!

Originally Posted by Kjetil Aakra

"Chevron4" is not from JG5, despite your lengthy analysis. I can give you are lot of reasons, but here are the simple ones.



1. Marking style not known from JG5

2. Geschwader ID band is not black-yellow

3. Americans are in picturee, they were not at Herdl a



That's enough to dispell your notion, believe me!



Kjetil

Indeed:

1. JG5 used chevron marking style only up to the last days of the war ( and I know for sure one ‘chevron3’ marking in 1943 in Stab III./JG5 ) when not any single chevron is known among late war ( ie: with the fuselage bands ) JG301 airplanes

2. Geschwader ID band is same tone as Swastika and fuselage Balken Cross

3. How could you be 100% sure that American never send any small unit in Herdla in 1945.

Originally Posted by Kjetil Aakra

"Blue 9" is not from JG 5 bcause



1. First fuselage band is not black, see my photo! These were freshly painted on JG 5 (applied very late) and very, very black.



2. The photo is from same series as "Chevron 4" and thus not at Herdla.



Anf finally, common to both photos:



THE PHOTOS ARE NOT TAKEN AT HERDLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



...where all Fw 190s from JG5 were at the end of the war!



So, to be absolutely clear, these photos do not show JG 5 machines!



Ruy, I think you misunderstood my post. I meant to say that the forward band IS black!



Regards,



Kjetil

Indeed :

1. Dust could easily made a black band looks grey on a B&W photo.

2. I don’t know Herdla as well as you and so can’t say if there is forest or not there but the country in front of ‘blue9’ is pretty flat and well they perhaps somewhere else, a pity there wasn’t any caption on the backside from the photo to tell where we are



So I still doubt, even if not taken at Herdla…

[Kjetil Aakra]

Hi.

Seems I forgot to mention that I have spent some 2 years at Herdla researching the airfield's history and helped start the museum there (http://www.museumsnett.no/herdlamuseum/).

I know the place intimately. There was very little forest there during the war, and certainly not near any dispersal area. So those two photos were not taken at Herdla, I am 100 % sure.

The "Chevron 3" marking you referred to was of an aircraft from Stab IV./JG 5 taken in Denmark (befoe transfer to Norway) and the marking was completely diferent from the one we're discussing here, with the Chevron (+bar) marking ahead of the fuselage Balkenkreuz and the number 3 (which was also coloured, perhaps green) behind.

Regard dust turning the bands into grey, all such bands of JG 5 190s that I have seen are very clear. Remember that these aircraft saw little use at the end and weere maintained in top condition up till the surrender.

Regards,

Kjetil

[gibsonfndr]

as a matter of fact ... Hagenow beeing in Schleswig Holstein, was a british zone wasn't it ? as is Nieder Sachsen ? does it mean NO american troops went there ? how about Herdla ?

[O.Menu]

Ok Kjetil, i can perfectly agree that photos were not taken at Herdla airfield but this can't be enough to say that they are from JG301 using inverted fuselage bands never saw before and chevron markings also never used by late JG301 as well as Fw 190F registered among II./JG5 stab but not in JG301 and so on...

Note: one take-off in bad weather could be enough to add dust on the black RV...

So i m not yet convinced and JG5 is still the best possibility i can see!

[O.Menu]

Fw 190A-8 in the 7379xx area registered in JG5, joining lost list and those known to have been found at Herdla on 10th of May 1945:

737935, 737937, 737939, 737941, 737943

So that could be one more argument to say that 737938 'blue9' could have been from JG5, no?

[Stig Jarlevik]

Dear O Menu/All

Excuse me for jumping into an ongoing conversation, but if you look at what you just wrote, the common factor of all the WNr listed are they carry odd numbers! WNr 737938 is an even number. Without having a slightest idea how Luftwaffe issued their production aircraft to their units, it SEEMS JG 5 was handed over aeroplanes with odd numbers (perhaps Ago had two productions lines, one with odd and the other with even WNr's?), so in fact your listing rather gives the indication that WNr 737938 was NOT delivered to JG 5 at all. What WOULD be interesting to find out is to where WNr 737934,-936,-938,-940 etc went.

Cheers

Stig Jarlevik

Gothenburg, Sweden

[O.Menu]

Possible, Sitg, possible...

In Sq Sgnl WalkAround it seems authors found a document saying that 737938 was dammaged on 23rd of January 1945 when it was under III./JG11 command...

So you could be right... 737938 first delivery could be within JG11 then only after probably major repairs, it was transfered to another unit, but which one?