JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?

[Kjetil Aakra]

I need to make a few things clear.

1. The aircraft are NOT from JG 5. I'd really like them to be as that would be interesting, but too many things don't fit (see my previous posts).

2. I don't know which JG they are from and have of course not commented on that in previous posts, I can only say that they are not from JG 5. JG 301 sounds plausible to me, though, but someone with more knowledge on that unit must answer that one.

Here's a list of all Fw 190s at Herdla as of 10th May 1945:

Stab II/JG 5 : 581166 (A-8) and 63801010 (F-8)
5./JG 5: 350187, 732117, 737124, 732126, 732127, 732150, 732173, 732179, 732181 and 732187 (all A-8s)
9./JG 5: 120478 (A-2), 130436, 132173, 135415, 135446, (all A-3s), 732076, 732197, 737939 and 737941 (all A-8s)

As only 5. (previously 12./JG 5) and 9./JG 5 operated the Fw 190 in JG 5 at the time, it means that all operational JG 5 Fw 190s surviving the war are in the above listing.

As 737938 is not in this listing and the photo of that aircraft was taken after the surrender, I am sure we can safely say it was never assigned to JG 5.

I personally think that the odd-number theory is interesting, but probably just a coincidence.

Kjetil

[O.Menu]

Hi Kjetil !

I give a second look to Olve Luft in Norway S.I.G. page: http://www.luftwaffe.no/ and it seems that the W.Nr list from airplanes in Norway on 10th MAY 1945 (or 10th August both date figured) was done from original German documents from 1945 and so could be consired as complete.

So yes it's ok, those 2 were not in Norway on 10th May 1945!

But this is not enough to convince me that they are not from JG5! They could escaped from Norway few days before trying to join their familly in Germany as others have done? Did this could happen inside JG5 as it had inside JG7 or JV44 for example?

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

Sorry to shoot down Your theory, but those days the traffic went the other way, from Germany and Denmark to Norway, which was pretty much the only German controlled area.

The only known traffic the other way around was larger aircraft which were used for evacuation from the east (and plans for evacuation).

The '<4' simply isn't a JG 5 aircraft, and I will try to substantiate this:

1. The soldiers in the photo are american! There were no GI's in Norway hunting for aircraft in the woods. The photo must have been taken on the continent.
2. The parts of JG 5 that had transferred from Norway had been known under their new names since the fall of 1944 (IV./JG 4 and III./JG 6 respectively). There is no evidence that the unit ever had the unit id bands before they were renamed, and well, they didn't have any FW 190's either...
3. The above mentioned parts of JG 5 (I. and II. Gruppe) had not had a single FW 190 in their inventory since August 1943 (I. Gruppe) and start of the war! (II. Gruppe).
4. The redispositions during the spring of 1945 in Norway still has to be studied further, but we are gathering information all the time. What is certain is that at least some of the Staffeln did not get their new designation before April 1st 1945!!!

The 'Blaue 9' is a slight possibility, but look at the photo Kjetil posted and the quality of the paintwork of the bands on the aircraft as they were being destroyed by allied forces - almost fresh paint!

Regards,
Andreas

[S Sheflin]

As usual, I am entering the fray late.


I think several of you have summed up this argument very well, but here I go anyway.


These aircraft are not from JG 5. I was incorrect in 1985 when I illustrated Fw 190 A-8 5+ White as being from JG 5 (AIRFOIL #3, page 32). I now have color slides taken at Fürth which positively show the red/yellow RV bands of I./JG 301.


This aircraft is not unique for that Geschwader. The planes I have documented from I./JG 301 all carry the “reversed” red/yellow RV bands. As well as several color slides, I own a whole series of original prints of captured I./JG 301 aircraft. Included are Fw 190 A-8 <4+ and 9+ Black, and an addition 9+ Black (not the same aircraft!) All have the “reversed” bands. None of these planes were photographed in Norway. They all came from central and southern Germany and Czechoslovakia.


These “reversed” RV bands seem to be unique to I./JG 301. As far as I can determine, all other JG 301 Gruppen carried the correct yellow/red RV bands.


Steve Sheflin

[Kjetil Aakra]

Thanks Mr. Sheflin, for your input. I think we all agree now that these are not JG 5 machines.

To Menu, there was no exodus of aircraft from Norway on or around May 5th, only to Norway.

Kjetil Aakra

[O.Menu]

Steve It's a very important and definitive information you give us !

I have planned to learn more tonight about the motor serial number from 'chevron4' to see if it will lead me to an A9/R-11 and so to JG301 or to an F-8 and so to JG5, i guess it will be the first version LOL!

Thanks a lot to you and to Kjetil, it's always a big happiness to learn more about late war Luftwaffe markings!

Steve when and where could we hope to be able to see them ? Dont tell us there will be 2 years to wait for!

Olivier Menu

[Erich]

thoughts on this I./JG 301 a/c ?

Erich ~

[gibsonfndr]

Originally Posted by S Sheflin

I was incorrect in 1985 when I illustrated Fw 190 A-8 5+ White as being from JG 5 (AIRFOIL #3, page 32). I now have color slides taken at Fürth which positively show the red/yellow RV bands of I./JG 301.


This aircraft is not unique for that Geschwader. The planes I have documented from I./JG 301 all carry the “reversed” red/yellow RV bands. As well as several color slides, I own a whole series of original prints of captured I./JG 301 aircraft. Included are Fw 190 A-8 <4+ and 9+ Black, and an addition 9+ Black (not the same aircraft!) All have the “reversed” bands. None of these planes were photographed in Norway. They all came from central and southern Germany and Czechoslovakia.

Steve Sheflin

we would love beeing able to see one color spic of these reverted RV bands ....

[O.Menu]

Hm,

Erich, isn't it strange to find all those reverse fuselage bands in South Germany when I./JG301 got Leck as last assigned airfield? Is it possible that they were not from I./JG301?

[O.Menu]

JG301 late war markings, new understanding:

Since, thanks to Steve Sheflin, we now know for sure that reversed JG301 fuselage had existed, there is two possibilities:

1/ this reversed RV is not for JG301, but this is hard to believe since exist many other RV colors possibilies before going to paint reversed and easy missleading RV colors.

2/ and best solution:
Each JG301 group used different markings for their 2 heavies and 2 lights Staffeln:

GeschwaderStab > green + blue horizontal bar (see NASM Ta 152 restoration )

I./JG301 Stab > chevron + reversed RV (see chevron4)

1./JG301 > (outlined? ) white + reversed RV (see white 5)
2./JG301 > outlined black + reversed RV (see black9)

3./JG301 > outlined yellow + (see yellow 17 )
4./JG301 > outlined blue + (see blue 7)



II./JG301 Stab > unknown

5./JG301 > white + red horizontal bar (see white 21 or D9 white 12 )
6./JG301 > red + red horizontal bar (see red 22 )

7./JG301 > yellow + white horizontal bar (see yellow 8 )
8./JG301 > blue + white horizontal bar (see blue? 20 in Barbas book)



III./JG301 > unknown markings since disbanded before end of war and so no Allied post war photos

IV./JG301 > same as III./JG301.

Indeed one or 2 photos shows Bf 109G-10 with an horizontal bar but this is perhaps after disbanded IV./JG301 transfered some of his Bf 109 to II./JG301, especially if we remember, that Erich said us one time IV./JG301 had red horizontal bar ?

So Erich about your last photo > could it be a "dark blue 3 + - " from 8./JG 301 or a "dark green 3 + - " from Stab II./JG301 ?

Note: Could anyone owning AIRFOIL #3, page 32 confirm if "white5 +" got outlined digit or even better send me a copy ?
llv34doc 'at' wanadoo.fr

(slight edit in the presentation)