Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

[edwest]

For those who wish to learn more about this, I suggest the following site:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1791/books.html


Sadly, massacres are a part of warfare, as is genocide or attempted genocide. The recent events in Bosnia-Herzcegovina with images of emaciated men in prison camps could have been taken in World War II. Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions, including some of his own military officers.


Ed

[Mazila]

Is this topic aviation related ?

let's move it to General WWII

I would appreciate admin reaction on some revisionist statements that are in Mirek message ( smthing like "Stalin would be attacked Germans on 20-24 July 1941 and the Hitler had saved the Western Europe from communism") which are nothing but nazi propaganda.

[Ruy Horta]

Although I am repeating myself I will state once more that this forum does not automatically endorse Mirek's or similar views simply because we allow these threads to continue.

But I do question the wisdom of using 12oclockhigh.net as a method of reminding "the world".

The question is why are these repeated posts being made by the same people again and again?

[ArtieBob]

This is in no way a defense of Stalinist USSR and its many acts of oppression, both for people of other nations or it's own. IMHO, there is very little evidence that Stalin had actually planned to attack the nazi territories in July 1941 and thus the Germann attack was preemptive defense. If one studies nazi doctrine, it seems quite apparent that the "living space" that was required for it's empire plans were to the East and the only question was when the nazis would continue their agression again in that direction. I believe there is an massive amount of documentation supporting this position. This would thus have truly made any move by Stalin West a defensive preemptive attack. So, what came first, the chicken or the egg, i.e., nazi or USSR aggrssive intentions. As noted above, I believe the documentation is overwhelming the nazi aggression came first. My knowledge of USSR abnd Russian history indicates that the long term interestwas to aquire territory and influence to the South. Finally, I believe the best predictor of future behavior of a person (i.e.,dictator) or regime is past behavior. Certainly there are few examples of aggressive territory takeover that can match that of nazi Germany (I suppose the invasions of Denmark, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, etc. were defending against future attacks on the German empire by those aggressive military giants?), and although Stalin's USSR was oppressive, I believe it's territorial aggression was driven more by opportunism that a "master plan".
Having to choose whether to have had the European land mass dominated by either nazi Germany or Stalinist USSR IMHO was no choice at all. Both regimes have now been consigned the junkpile of history where they and their ilk belong. There were then, and are now, better paradigms for Europe and the world, none being perfect, for they all include rather imperfect human beings.

The main problem with straying from airplanes in this forum is that almost without fail, we end up with bad history.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

[edwest]

In my view, due to the knowledge of the people here, those who post about these subjects feel they have the perfect audience. It appears that the trauma of the War and the subsequent Soviet Occupation has compelled them to educate Westerners with the truth about Stalin and the Soviet Union.

It also appears that they take offense to the Russians being referred to as Allies.

Also, Polish language books have a limited market in Western countries, and it is similar for English language books about Polish history for this time period. I can see how it would be difficult to spend about half a century living with propaganda about the War.



Ed

[Mazila]

The problem is that most poles are generally unhappy about polish history.

Certainly it was really a bad lack to be between Russia and the West.

The bad thing for Poland was that almost nobody on the West cared about poor "psheks" for 200+ years while they were a toy of russian politics. Nobody helped them against Russians as well as against Germans. The West always sacrificed Poland in deals with her big and agressive neighbours.

Poles are free now but some people there can't get rid of their old limitrophe inferiority complex.

They need a revenge.

It's understood but boring

[Franek Grabowski]

Personally, I think both Ed and Artie have some right, though I would not necessarily agree with all their views.
It is also not only a trauma but a very physical consequences of Soviet dominance, that result in economical collapse. It is also due to links between former agents of communistic secret services, including spies in the west. This is a cancer that must be removed in interest of all of us. It affects also understanding of history - Russians and then Soviets paid hard bucks to influential journalists and writers just to create aview of their country and history that had fitted their needs. Amassement of extreme leftist at some universities is not a coincidence.
Of course this worked perfectly when none was able to get inside of the Soviet Union - please note what had happenned to eg. US airmen, who 'infiltrated' behind the border during the WWII. Of course, we, 'insiders', have a vastly different experience and we want to show it both to get some truth but also to get some safety. Truth is just the best killer of communism.
Thus said, I have to make some comments to Artie Bob's post.
Actually there is a lot of (indirect) evidence that Soviets were redying to an agressive war. I think most important document is an operational plan for aviation of White Russian Front, that leaves no doubt about aggressive character. I would suggest to open another thread for the subject, however.
The same concerns German doctrine. If one reads Mein Kampf, he will understand. The main objective was to avoid a war on two fronts at all costs. They failed, a question is - why?
Finally, about Soviet aggression. This was an aggressive country as was Russia to some degree. Their main objective was to regain control over all the former Russian Empire. Then, the sphere of influence and ultimately occupation had to be widened. It is apparent from Trotsky but also from the moves of Soviet government. They just did it another way rather than Germans. They first were establishing a communistic opposition, quite often by overtaking an existing one, then pumped them with money and finally either sponsored a 'peaceful democratic' takeover or military coup. This way they did or attempted to in France, Greece, Italy or Spain in Europe, Chile and Cuba in Latin America, Afghanistan and Vietnam in Asia, etc. They were only partially successfull with such countries like China or Yugoslavia. I am not counting revolutions in Germany and Hungary in 1918 but perhaps I should do so as well. Really, Soviet imperialism is a fascinating stuff but even more impressive is their propaganda.

[Mazila]

Franek

As far as I can get from you and your friend Mirek,

Frankly speaking ,

everything what's happened is jewish-bolshevik conspiracy against Poland, right?

[Obst. Zerstorer]

"Stalin would be attacked Germans on 20-24 July 1941 and the Hitler had saved the Western Europe from communism"

Really??? As far as I know Polish people advoctae that Poland smashed communism alone! But I am sure all we can agree communism was smashed by Hitler and Poland together!

The question is why are these repeated posts being made by the same people again and again?

Good question! I am interesting whether these two guys represent majority or minority of Polish society. If really majority then Dear God save us...

everything what's happened is jewish-bolshevik conspiracy against Poland, right?

I would personally add entire masonry to that list! You know...compen$ations for poor Poland would be bigger...

Regards

Zerstorer

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello all!

I would like just to remind that Soviet Union did commit in aggression pre-Barbarossa. It attacked Finland in November 30th, 1939 and started a very bloody war against it's small neighbour. At least in this direction the game plan was clear in 1941. Either Finland goes into war with German against Soviet Union or vice versa. After Winter War the latter had become uthopy.

In addition Soviet Union occupied and swallowed Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania June of 1940. This may belong under opportunism (just after the fall of France), but is also part of the Soviet Union's/Russia's "Drang Nach Ostsee" so to say. In economics arena (oil transit etc.) this is still going on albeit in civilized form.


Regards,
Kari