Erich Hartmann - several questions

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

Furthermore, I distrust the German loss archives. As Dánes Bárnad stated here, the Germans were much less reliable than the Russians to record losses, and that matches my experience with them.

Anyone's archives may be incomplete or inaccurate for all the usual reasons of human fallibility. I know little about the Eastern Front but please bear in mind that it was important in ANY air force to report losses because that was the only way a unit could get replacement aircraft. I have seen several messages from higher Luftwaffe commands to units demanding explanations for day-to-day discrepancies in teir strength and serviceability figures. I would infer from this that the matter was taken very seriously in the Luftwaffe.

[DiegoZampini]

Originally Posted by Rasmussen

unfortunately this are assumptions ... and of course it's more heroic to ram the "fascist" before the crash than an simple shot down by the "fascist" (especially for an soviet pilot at this time ... the soviet clerks too). There are eyewitness reports or reports from the mentioned AAA unit known and were cross checked? I'd believe Leykauf was able to distinguish between an ram and AAA fire and to report this correct.

Yes, of course it is more heroic if the Soviet flier rammed the "fascist". And I do not discard the chance that there is an embelishment of the event to give other Soviet pilots "an example to follow", or an attempt to cover excesive losses with an "heroic act". But that is also an assumption.
In the other hand, it seems to me that you consider that such event (intentional ramming) is immediately unlikely, like if a Russian airmen would be unable to perform such a deed, and if it would be always preferable to believe a German account than a Russian one. If it is the case, I disagree. And if it is not (if you give the same reliability to the Russians than the Germans), I apologyze for missunderstanding you.
Regarding Leykauf being able to distinguish between a ramming and AAA fire: How could he for sure distinguish between a ram and AAA? Unless he had been hit by flak or rammed before. But so far the German loss records do not show that such a thing had happened. Of course I might be wrong.
Kind regards
Diego

[DiegoZampini]

Hi, guys:
For the ones who don't speak Russian, I translate into English the text kindly posted by Evgeniy, accounting the air combat where likely the La-5 ace Pavel Grazhdanikov (169 IAP) shot down Bf.109G ace Hans "Assi" Hahn on 21 February 1943.

Shortly before 9:00 hs from Rebiltsy airodrome took off six Bf.109Gs, led by Gruppenkomandeur II./JG 54, Major [Hans] Hahn. The mission of the 6-planes group was freie jagd (free hunt) and to seach for Soviet aircraft attacking the German columns retreating from Demyansk. The area asigned for hunting was at the west of Demyansk-Ramushevo. About that same time (+ 2 hs Moskow time, the time difference in Winter) from aerodrome Zaborove scrambled six fighters La-5 of 169 IAP, led by Kapitan Chislov, with the mission of patrolling the area of the cauldron.
According to the report of Hahn's wingman, Oberleutnant [Max] Stotz, kontakt with the group of 8 La-5 took place at 9:09 hs, in the southern end of the cauldron, at an altitude of 2500 meters. The pair Hahn-Stotz separated of the group and jumped the Soviet aircraft with an altitude advantage of 200 meters. According to the memories of Hahn, they attacked a group of Aircobras, after what Hahn shot down one, which blew up in mid-air, and the aircraft attacked by Stotz smoked heavily, and the pilot bailed out. According to our data, in the first attack was downed and died Starshiy Leytenant Vorovyev, and Mladshiy Leytenant Balandin could abandon his flaming aircraft in parachute. After that both groups, our and German ones, scattered and the combat continued. Stotz lost track of his leader and was dragged to maneuvering dogfight with the Russian leader, after what to the damaged Chislov's airplane was necessary disengage to return to his aerodrome. Hahn attacked Grazhdanikov, but doing so he himself exposed to the attack of Grazhdanikov's wingman, Starzhyy Serzhant Davydov. Hahn's fight was observed by the remaining four German fighters. When they saw that Hahn fought alone against two Soviet airplanes, to help him rushed pair of Oberfeldwebel Repple. According to the report of Repple himself: "I wanted to atack the La-5 who flew higher. But I saw that already was under attack of a Bf.109. I identified this aircraft, like the one belonging to Major Hahn. Then I began to climb/gain altitude. Soon after that I spotted two airplanes, and realized that they were La-5s. I dived towards them and realized that they pursued a Bf.109." However Repple was late, Grazhdanikov and Davydov managed to struck the Bf.109. Repple could fire a long barrier burst, after what the two La-5s evaded attack and went to the south. The damaged Bf.109 began to set the course in north-western direction. According to Repple it had not visible damage.
Hahn could not reach his base. For the last time linked up with Stotz and radioed the following: "Stotz, they taught dad a good lesson. I must perform a emergency landing." After that he landed near the road from Novaya Derevnya, south-west of Demyansk, not far from a passing columns of reinforcements.
Hahn was brought to Zaborovye, where he met pilots of 32 GIAP and 169 IAP.
After that was transfered to Vypolzovo, where he was interrogated several times."

Tomorrow will be very bussy, but in the night I will reply all remaining posts, specially the ones to Nikita Egorov and Dénes Bernád (Mr. Bernád, I apologyze that I misspelled your name earlier).
Kind regards,
Diego

[kennethklee]

I totally forgot I initiated this thread and have not been back until now--I'm amazed and gratified at the large number of responses and active discussion, and even more so with the new information about Hartmann and other Luftwaffe aces.

Johannes--I had no idea Hartmann had such a poor reputation among his comrades and that he is suspected of being a prominent overclaimer. You are right, The Blond Knight of Germany has long been my primary source of information about Hartmann and it certainly idealizes him. Interestingly, although I certainly can't explain, when I read the uncredited interview w/Hartmann 1-2 days before my initial post, which was motivated by the interview, I sensed for the 1st time that the real Hartmann was different from the character portrayed in Blond Knight, just not sure how at the time. My vague impression was Hartmann was a harder and less charitable and compassionate person than Blond Knight had led me to believe.

I am perhaps an "ugly American" who is not fluent in languages besides English--and perhaps some could dispute I am fluent in English! Hence, growing up in the late 1970's and early 1980's, the primary books about Luftwaffe fighter pilots accessible to me were the much-maligned and discredited Toliver/Constable Luftwaffe fighter aces book and the Hartmann biography Blond Knight of Germany. Only recently over the past 10 years have I become aware of more detailed and creditable information on Luftwaffe fighter pilots in general and Hartmann in particular. I know the hard-core enthusiast may scoff at and refute my comments by pointing out I could have taught myself sufficient rudimentary German to read the German-language references, or at least pored over them with a German-English dictionary in hand. I can't say such an enthusiast would be wrong, I can just say for various reasons, mainly a busy career with a heavy night/weekend call schedule and perhaps insufficient moral fiber and motivation, I did not do so.

I am happy Bernd Barbas is writing a Barkhorn biography. Not being critical, just making an observation--in a way, it's a shame that the Barkhorn and other biographies are being written well after most Luftwaffe veterans have passed away. Hindsight is 20/20, of course, and I also realize that writing about Luftwaffe and Axis personnel and histories was not looked upon favorably for many years after WWII. I know the Toliver/Constable tomes had little documentation or rigid research basis, but they served one valuable service--being the first substantial English-language books to cover Luftwaffe fighter pilots. These tomes further developed my burgeoning interest in the Luftwaffe. I recall Galland, in his foreword for the Blond Knight book, thanked the authors and acknowledged the role played by the authors' Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe in edifying much of the English-speaking world about and negating to an extent their negative images about Luftwaffe fighter pilots.

Reading the new information that provide glimpses about Hartmann's true and perhaps discredited reputation and character, I am very curious about one stat attributed to Hartmann--did he truly lose only one wingman (bomber pilot Capito, who parachuted to safety) in his 1400+ flight career, or is this another myth?

I apologize if my comment about contemporary biographies was construed as unjustly critical--that was not my intent at all, I was simply bemoaning the fact that few Luftwaffe veterans are alive and fewer still can/will contribute to these books. Thanks much to all who responded for a very lively and informative discussion containing much interesting new information and speculation.

Ken