Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler

[Marius]

Ruy,
nobody said it is a lie, but a manipulation. The reader of the books does not know the order was a draft only.
Combined or not combined..., this order was cealed. There was no such attack on Warsaw on 11.9. or later (you can compare it with my book Kampfflieger, where all bombing missions are listed hour after hour and day after day).
"Nicht befohlen" is concerning the whole document.

For the 25.9. exists another order, where you cannot find any intention to bomb purely civilian targets.

It is possible that "Unternehmen Wasserkante" was "Operation 1", planned as a big bombing attack on Warsaw on 1.9.1939.
I will ask someone for it.

Marius

[Marius]

One more note;
Ruy, you wrote about point 1. It is giving the date 11.9. for the mission. But in Gröhler`s articles you cannot find this detail. The author just cut out point 2 from the whole context.
As I read one of the books many years ago, I was convinced this order was generalized for September 1939 and in fact given to Luftwaffe units. But it seems Gröhler had a vision of the things at first and then he was searching for "proper words" in documents.

The very big problem is that the publicity is knowing only Gröhler`s version of the order and it is using it plentiful and as reliable. Ironically you can find it everywhere. And here the question comes up from itself: where are other similar orders? What about the air war history if they did not even existed?

Our speculations concerning Op 1 and the rest are perhaps going much too far. They could be common short-cuts in the German military administration papers.

Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Warsaw was a target of heavy attack on the previous day and a lot of leaflets were then droped. On 11.09 Heeresgruppe Sued called for immediate air support due to unexpected attack of Polish army (Battle of Bzura). This, combined with Hitler's visit on the front, may have resulted with cancellation of the order.
By the way, why not to ask Groehler himself?

[Marius]

The whole area around Warsaw was bombed on 10.9., not only the city itself. I don`t know anything about leaflets on this day.
In spite of the Bzura battle Luftwaffe was strong enough to carry out such a repression attack on Warsaw. For example also on 13.9. ca. 218 aircraft of Luftflotte 4 attacked military targets in Warsaw.

The order was never cancelled, because it was a draft only. As you will it never left the drawer. Such methods of attacks surely were discussed (as in every other nation`s high commands too). In Poland it was not needed to demoralize civilians, because Poland was too weak and the campaign took a fast end.

I think the reason for cancellation of the draft is going to an international matter. President Roosevelt send a note to the participating governments at the start of the war and everybody of them agreed (as I remember).
The other reason should be the fear of retaliatory attacks by French and RAF bombers.

I can "understand" that later RAF (divided from Germany by the English Channel) sought for any method to win the long war.
Maybe we will not find similar German orders for the period 1940-1941 as well, because Germany was repeatedly searching for peace with England. Such repression attacks against the enemy would make it impossible to gain peace.

Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Germany was in hurry to finish the campaign and was also in hurry to get Warsaw. One of the Stalin's conditions was that Warsaw must be captured before the enter of the Red Army. Hence many misleading reports about capture of Warsaw. Also, it seems you overestimate Luftwaffe abilities, as IIRC, on 17.09 raids on Warsaw were cancelled and all the efforts directed toward tactical targets.

[Marius]

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Germany was in hurry to finish the campaign and was also in hurry to get Warsaw. 


Yes, but nevertheless Germany was waiting several days for the surrender of Warsaw, without bombing it. So we could see this as a "trial of human attitude".

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Also, it seems you overestimate Luftwaffe abilities, as IIRC, on 17.09 raids on Warsaw were cancelled and all the efforts directed toward tactical targets. 


On 17.9. should have appear Polish parlementaires, but they didn`t. Cancelling all Luftwaffe attacks against Warsaw on this day was a personal decision of Hitler. Bombing of Warsaw wouldn`t have been a problem, because several bomb groups (Kampfgeschwader) were ready for this action, for example KG 3. And see, the heavy bombing was carried out on the 25th (!!), not earlier.
In spite of Russian aggression on the 17th and the whole desperately operational situation of Polish troops the Polish decision not to surrender in Warsaw was totally foolish.

Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Yes, but nevertheless Germany was waiting several days for the surrender of Warsaw, without bombing it. So we could see this as a "trial of human attitude".

God, save us from the German human attitude!

On 17.9. should have appear Polish parlementaires, but they didn`t. Cancelling all Luftwaffe attacks against Warsaw on this day was a personal decision of Hitler.

Hitler's decision was to send all tactical units to Kutno area and that was teh reason of the order.

Bombing of Warsaw wouldn`t have been a problem, because several bomb groups (Kampfgeschwader) were ready for this action, for example KG 3.

Indeed, and indeed Warsaw was bombed this day. Churches, hospitals and various other civilian buildings were targetted.

And see, the heavy bombing was carried out on the 25th (!!), not earlier.

Apparently you believe everything before had been done by martians.

In spite of Russian aggression on the 17th and the whole desperately operational situation of Polish troops the Polish decision not to surrender in Warsaw was totally foolish.

Please, refrain from your comments, they are neither wise nor appropriate.
Poland fought as long as possible because this was a result of agreements with France and UK.

[Pawel Burchard]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

By the way, why not to ask Groehler himself?

If he is the same person as mentioned here http://www.polwiss.fu-berlin.de/fsi/ap/ap5-sedstaat.htm (I believe so), than he passed away lately.

Pozdrowienia,
Pawel