Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949

[Andy Saunders]

Peter

I am waiting to hear the evidence on which the MOD hang their case that Allen was flying P2555 when lost on 18 May, but I must conclude (in the absence of any evidence to the contrary) that the MOD have deduced this serial number from the casualty report into Allen.

What has happened is that the Neuvilly case prompted the MOD to view this Neuvilly find as potentially Derek Allen. As a consequence of that it has seemingly resulted in an MOD/CWGC review of casualties buried as "unknown" who might be linked to Neuvilly. That, in turn, revealed the location of a grave elsewhere and which the MOD/CWGC discovered to be a body taken in 1940 from the wreck of Hurricane P2555. Until now there had been no linking of any specific casualty with P2555, but the MOD are now able to say that they have been able to confirm that upon reviewing their records they know that Allen was lost in P2555. This will result in a named headstone being provided to the grave in question.

Unfortunately, I cannot say at this stage exactly what documents the MOD have drawn upon. One has to just accept that they are 100% satisfied else they would not be notifying the family and instructing CWGC to replace the headstone.

Arnaud.

We know that Allen baled out on 15th and returned to 85 Sqn on 16th. I am satisfied from information from both ORB and the family that he survived the 15 May episode, returned to the squadron on 16 May and died between 0630 and 0700 on 18 May. However, another puzzle is that CWGC state his date of death to be 15 May 1940!

Also, would there be an "accident card" for the loss of P2701 on 15 May if this was a combat loss??

[arnaud]

Andy,

"Would there be an "accident card" for the loss of P2701 on 15 May if this was a combat loss??"

Yes ! according to R.A.F Historical Branch but archive are closed to public to 2040 so I don't know the exact name of those archive... I thought and I still believe the name "accident card" is correct.

This a/c number for Allen on May 18th 1940 as P2555 is probably based on the same archive. If yes it is very believable indeed... I trust those archive 100 % by experience.

Bon vol

[paulmcmillan]

"James Halley's RAF Aircraft P1000-P9999 (1978) clearly records P2701 as a No.85 Squadron aircraft shot down over Belgium on 11 May 1940"

According to ORB (admittedly written after the event)

Would this the aircraft Ft/Lt R.H.A Lee was flying on this date ?? He bailed out and returned to unit next day

ORB also states Allen shot down on 15th, Returned 16th and Lost on 18th


Seen N2388 'VY‑R' quoted as Lee's aircraft

[Andy Saunders]

Arnaud

I think you are talking about the Casualty File. The Accident Cards are something entirely different and if there was not a casualty there would be no card anyway.... and if there was a casualty but the incident was a Flying Battle Occurrence there would be no accident card, either, as it is not an "accident".

[arnaud]

Andy,

Thank you for this precise information. So is there a "Casualty file" for pilot Allen missing on May 18th 1940?

It would be so easier for historians if all national archives would be opened to public which is obviously not the case... When they will be free to public, nobody will care about it. But that the point of the so well named "Secret Defence"... I just hope they won't destroy them as the R.A.F. did for thousands of log books.

We have the same problem in France, but in Great-Britain it is a lot more important...

Bon vol

[Andy Saunders]

Yes, there would be a casualty file for Allen but all Cas.Files are currently "closed".

However, look elsewhere on this forum for discussion about release of Casualty Reports to TNA Kew under AIR 81 documents.

[arnaud]

Andy,

Excuse me but I have some difficulties to understand what happened at Neuvilly. I need your help...

1. So there is an unknown pilot found at Neuvilly in a Hurricane No. P3533 in 2007. A pilot, or better to write half a pilot, was found here. Could you tell us in which cemetery this half unidentified body will be buried or is buried? So this pilot is unidentified and of course will receive an unmarked grave.

2. There is another Hurricane shot down at Neuvilly with another unidentified pilot. Where is buried this body? As I understand, the MOD now have received information that this particular body buried (where you know) came from Neuvilly in a Hurricane No. P2555. As they do have a report saying Allen was shot down on May 18th 1940 in Hurricane No. P2555, MOD have identified this unmarked grave as Allen. Then MOD asked to change the stone (where you know) for another one with Allen written on it.

If you can explain me the situation in a simple way, I would be very pleased.

If I understand well, but I need your explications, there are two Hurricane crash sites at Neuvilly
1. Hurricane No. P3533 : this one is confirmed by many documents.
2. Hurricane No. P2555 : for that one I have not one single information. Do you have any information of this second crash site at Neuvilly?

Bye

[Andy Saunders]

Arnaud

Your summary is pretty much accurate.

However, the MOD have only confirmed to the family that Derek Allen was lost in P2555 on 18 May 1940 but do not say where.

I am in regular contact with the family and they are asking for further information, I believe, from the MOD. Once they have this information I should know and I will be in a position to inform you.

As to the unidentified man from P3533, I do not know yet which CWGC cemetery he will be buried in, but I will be told in due course.

Until certain matters are sorted out with the family with regards to the "unknown" grave, including the wording on the new headstone etc, I am not in a position to give you any more details at present.

As soon as I can say more, I will.

[arnaud]

Andy,

If I knew in which village is this unmarked grave soon becoming Allen's one, I would be perhaps in position to give some more details from French archives as the document about P3533...

At Neuvilly cemetery : P/O Clifford 26 Sqn 19/05/40 is buried : so three aircraft, 1 man killed and 2 men missing in this only village in two days...

[Andy Saunders]

Yes, I have seen Clifford's grave in a WW1 cemetery but do not know his crash site.

I will PM you later in the week with details of the cemetery where Allen is buried.