Boston and P-38's claimed on 21st November 1943

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
One Boston and five P-38's were claimed on the 21st November 1943 according to Tony Woods files.
Can anyone come up with the serial numbers and crew names of these aircraft please ?
Luftwaffe pilots and Units are given in the files.
Thanks
alex

[Dan Johnson]

You sure about the dates? 8th AF 38s weren't flying that day and the MTO 38s didn't lose anyone either.

[Alex Smart]

Hello Dan,
I did refer to the Tony Wood's files.
Alex

[Laurent Rizzotti]

According to the website below, one P-38 of 1st FG was shot down and several damaged:
http://raf-112-squadron.org/1stfghonor_roll.html

"B-26 escort to Fano, Italy on the Adriatic. 6 hours in the air with staging at Decimomannu, home at dark. Saw about 12-15 ME109’s. Had a small scrap but didn’t get a shot. The 27th [FS] was jumped by 4 who damaged two of ours and shot down one, Lt Flynn. We claim one 109 damaged. We were supposed to move today but it has been postponed again, this time until the 23rd C’est La Guerre! Flynn got back. Landed in Italy."

As the pilot came back, there was probably no MACR.

The Boston might be any two-engined bomber flown by USAAF or RAF/RAAF/SAAF in the area.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

By the way the source for these five P-38 claims are the following:
_ three claims with "n.L." comment come from the Luftwaffe claim microfilms used by Tony. I don't know what is the meaning of "n.L." there.

_ two claims come from the books by Mr Jochen Prien & co on "JG 53". This is now an outdated source, from the own words of the author that is now working on a far more up to date series of books on Luftwaffe fighters (including claims and losses lists).

[Dan Johnson]

Interesting to see that comment about the 1st losing a 38.

Quoting from John Mullin's 1st FG History "An Escort of P-38s"

"On the 21st we escorted B-26s to bomb railroad bridges in Italy. Several enemy aircraft were engaged in the target area and two of our planes were damaged slightly"

[Stig Jarlevik]

Alex/Laurent

Prien now have three P-38 claims by I./JG 53 on Nov 21st
Obfw Hans Kornatz at 13.10H
Uffz Willi Dreyer at 13.11H
FhjFw Egon Ohletz at 13.12H

I./JG 77 claimed one Boston by Ofw Kurt Niederhagen at 13.43H but this was at another place and not in the same combat as above. Possibly the same US units of course. Marauders and Bostons were pretty much the same in a fast hit and run attack.

No other claims are in Prien's 1943 books about the Med as far as I can see.

Cheers
Stig

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

24 Bf 109s of I./J.G. 53 and I./J.G. 77 scrambled and engaged an enemy formation in the area of Ancona and Fano. The Germans estimated that 50 Bostons and Mitchells were escorted by 50 Lightings. One Boston and three Lightnings were shot down, one P-38 was damaged and exited the combat trailing smoke, and a Mitchell was hit in the fuselage and damaged.

From the American side, 1/Lt. Donald David Kienholz of the 94th FS/1st FG claimed an FW 190 damaged in the Fano - Casano River bridges area between 13:05 and 13:45. This was a case of misidentification, because there were no FW 190 operations on this day.

A squadron of B-26s was reported to have bombed the Fano railway bridge successfully during the day.

Sources
MATAF Int/Opsum
NA HW 5
II. Fliegerkorps records


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

[Dan Johnson]

In the end it appears that no 38s were lost. The mention of one being shot down, was followed by "Flynn got back. Landed in Italy."

Whoever was writing the journal originally thought one was lost, but Flynn put down at another field before returning.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
This is from the TonyWood's files

21. November 1943

Jafü Oberitalien

21.11.43 Uffz. Willy Unger: n.L. 1./JG 53 P-38F £ S.W. Fabriano: 4.200 m. 13.11 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.382
21.11.43 Ofw. Schmidtz: n.L. 1./JG 53 P-38 £ 15 km. W. Fabriano: 4.200 m. 13.10 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.381
21.11.43 Fw. Ohlig: n.L. 1./JG 53 P-38 £ 12 km. S.W. Fabriano: 4.200 m. 13.12 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.388
21.11.43 Ofw. Kurt Niederhagen: 11 1./JG 77 Boston £ 3414: 3.500 m. 13.43 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.214

Supplemental Claims from Sources:
21.11.43 Uffz. Dreyer: 1 1./JG 53 P-38 £ - 13.11 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1681
21.11.43 Ofw. Hans Kornatz: 27 1./JG 53 P-38 £ - - Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1681

So these claims were unfounded ?
Alex