Korea-MiG-15 and the other side of the history

[Miguel A]

According to Mr. Diego Zampini and Mr. Igor Seidov

270 Sabres were killed by VVS MiG-15
293 VVS MiG-15 were killed by Sabres (89 during Maple Special missions)

What should I believe?

6+:1 or 1,08:1 ?

Mr Zampini and Mr. Seidov had researched declassified Soviet records of that time. They have writen a book in which they explain almost each case.

I'm asking for help in this theme.

Thanks in advance.

[mars]

Originally Posted by Miguel A

According to Mr. Diego Zampini and Mr. Igor Seidov

270 Sabres were killed by VVS MiG-15
293 VVS MiG-15 were killed by Sabres (89 during Maple Special missions)

What should I believe?

6+:1 or 1,08:1 ?

Mr Zampini and Mr. Seidov had researched declassified Soviet records of that time. They have writen a book in which they explain almost each case.

I'm asking for help in this theme.

Thanks in advance.

Has their book been published in English?

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Miguel A

According to Mr. Diego Zampini and Mr. Igor Seidov

270 Sabres were killed by VVS MiG-15
293 VVS MiG-15 were killed by Sabres (89 during Maple Special missions)

What should I believe?

6+:1 or 1,08:1 ?

Mr Zampini and Mr. Seidov had researched declassified Soviet records of that time. They have writen a book in which they explain almost each case.

I'm asking for help in this theme.

Thanks in advance.

The USAF Statistics Digest for 1953 showed a total of 78 F-86 air combat losses, listed by month. The real number is apparently around 85-90, counting a/c which returned with MiG damage but were never repaired. A very 'pro MiG' count might get close to 100 counting even slightly ambiguous cases of other loss causes as *all* turning out to be MiG losses (though that doesn't seem an objective thing to assume), but numbers beyond that cannot be supported by archival evidence on US side.

I base this conclusion on direct research in USAF records as preserved at a couple of different archives in the US, many different forms of records, a very large amount of material (individual a/c records, daily 5th AF and FEAF summaries, supplementary 5th AF reports about loss and damage, missing a/c reports, accident reports, periodic unit history reports, squadron maintenance records which survive in a few cases, etc.).

And not to directly criticize those authors without having read the book, are you sure 270 is just F-86's? The earlier edition of 'Red Devils' makes no firm statement about US losses. 270 would be somewhat closer though still too high for total MiG aerial victories in Korea, which probably totalled around 175 (150-some by UN side official count at the time).

OTOH the previous version of Red Devils quoted a total of 319 MiG-15's lost in air combat. Not all of those were shot down by F-86's. But perhaps Mr. Seidov has also further refined the number. Although, it seemed to me that he'd omitted a few in the original 'Red Devils' compared to VB Naboka's 'Nato's Hawks/Stalin's Falcons' which was a pretty direct transcription of 64th Fighter Corps combat summaries through the summer of 1951. And even Mr. Naboka's attributed a couple of losses to operational causes which seem from US archival sources to be the result of US a/c. But anyway 293 is within the already widely accepted range for *Soviet* MiG losses to F-86's.

But, the PLAAF says it lost 224 MiG's in combat (a number which needs much more 'bottom up' research incident by incident to fully corroborate IMO, but I haven't complete evidence to say it's wrong). And the 1953 defector No Gum-sok said the KPAAF lost 100 MiG's to all causes during the war. His checkable statements were highly accurate, and his unit was in action suffering losss from November 1951. So I believe 50 combat losses is a conservative figure for KPAAF MiG-15 air combat losses. Add up and divide using 90 as F-86 air combat losses and it's ~6:1.

So the crux of the disagreement is total F-86 air combat losses, and secondarily if we agree a particular F-86 air combat loss total there'd be question which were due to Soviet v PLAAF and KPAAF a/c. The Soviets claimed 642 F-86's (per first edition of Red Devils), the PLAAF 211 (official), and an NK source Mr Seidov quotes mentions 44 by KPAAF. The Soviets were long more numerous than their allies and more experienced and effective on average. So of course they scored many more victories, but also claimed a lot more. My general impression based on cases where detailed Soviet and Chinese accounts are known for particular days or combat is that the PLAAF claims were perhaps more exaggerated, but not greatly more. I don't think it would be far wrong to assume the proportion of F-86's downed by the Soviets was similar to their proporation of the claims, so perhaps 70-some% of the 90 or so F-86's downed by MiG's in total.

Re: Mars, I spoke to a guy who says he is translating (to English) what I believe to be the same book.

Re: Daniel from long ago, sorry yes B-29 44-61835

Joe

[Miguel A]

Originally Posted by "mars"

Has their book been published in English?

Mr. Seidov book's was published in Russian only, AFAIK.

The last thing Mr. Zampini told me was that they were preparing his book for publishing. It was not been published yet in February 2011. Here a transcription of Mr. Zampini's words (in Spanish, I could translate it if required)

Mig-15 derribados EN COMBATE POR TODAS LS CAUSAS: 538
Amplio este dato: 293 de los 314 MiG-15 soviéticos perdidos en combate lo fueron a manos de los F-86, de los restantes siete lo fueron por F-80, cuatro por F-84, dos por F9F Panther, dos por artilleros de B-29 y uno por un F3D Skynight. De los chinos/norcoreanos no tengo estadísticas, pero es válido asumir que de sus 224 MiG-15 pérdidos en combate casi todos fueron por Sabre.
F-86 derribados por MiG-15 SOVIÉTICOS : 270

[JoeB]

Another way to summarize is as follows:

1. 293 Soviet MiG's lost to Sabres: per Mr. Seidov's study of Soviet archives on a case by case basis

2. 224 PLAAF MiG's lost: officially stated, though not yet subject to review on a case by case basis by any independent researcher, a few not to F-86's.

3. At least some KPAAF MiG's were certainly downed by F-86's. The defector No specified some particular incidents (for example January 25, 1952 his unit was jumped by F-86's and lost 4 a/c, corresponding to a combat reported on US side with numerous claims). And KPAAF MiG losses are definitely not included in the PLAAF's total. No's 100 losses to all causes is still the best estimate AFAIK. Remember that No gave US interrogators all kinds of other info also about Soviet/Chinese operations at Antung, units, pilots etc that turned out true. He was very reliable.

4. I found around 90 F-86 air combat losses in case by case study of USAF records, considering all known MiG claims (all Soviet ones in time and place, not just date). And case by case means finding a US report of every *combat* the Soviets recorded with F-86's: one exists in almost every case. It's not just a matter of sifting through loss info, but highly complete and detailed (in most cases) operational info.

5. Mr. Zampini claims there were 270 F-86 air combat losses. Mr. Zampini's main source of 'US records' is AFAIK the former Defense POW/Missing Personnel Office online database KORWALD. AFAIK he's never researched hard copy US archives himself. But, 270 F-86 air combat losses is simply not what the records say, whether you've reviewed them or not. A number like that comes from (selectively) rejecting what the US records say (as to cause, date, damage v. total loss, or in some past cases Mr. Zampini seemed to feel certain Soviet claim accounts were convincing enough to conclude losses the US records don't mention at all). Mr. Zampini believes he has good reasons to use this method (as I've heard him describe before) but here I'm just focusing on the difference in method.

The research method to get figures 1 and 4 is basically the same: look up each case in declassifed records, report what the records say. The research method to get the total in 5 is basically different.

Joe

[Miguel A]

To JoeB Mr Zampini told me that you helped him to elaborate the ACIG's Air to Air Victories tables about the Korean War. Even being incomplete bacause they only cover the 1950 to 1952 period for US victories, Mr Zampini told me that I must not trust in that tables because they are obsolete nowadays. Unfortunately that's the only first-hand reference I have to know about Korean war A2A results. The other is the KORWALD archive, but Mr Zampini also told me that the KORWALD archive is not complete, and that it does not include some proven US losses. i.e: some P-51(I can review and provide which) I asking you for help direct me to some link to read about this. Thanks.

[James S.]

Originally Posted by Miguel A

According to Mr. Diego Zampini and Mr. Igor Seidov

270 Sabres were killed by VVS MiG-15
293 VVS MiG-15 were killed by Sabres (89 during Maple Special missions)

What should I believe?

6+:1 or 1,08:1 ?

Mr Zampini and Mr. Seidov had researched declassified Soviet records of that time. They have writen a book in which they explain almost each case.

I'm asking for help in this theme.

Thanks in advance.

Mr. Seidov's book, not sure if this is the one being referred to, has been published in English. Red Devils Over the Yalu: A Chronicle of Soviet Aerial Operations in the Korean War 1950-53 by Igor Seidov. Excellent book I highly recommend.

[edwest]

In case anyone missed it in another thread:


"Many years after the war, a study by the U.S. Air Force, code named Sabre Measure Charlie, downgraded the F-86 Sabre-versus-MiG-15 “kill ratio” from more than 14 to 1 to a revised figure of 7 to 1. The latter figure remains the best achievement in any fighter campaign in history prior to Operation Desert Storm."


Source: http://www.koreanwar60.com/air-force



Ed

[NickM]

Originally Posted by edwest

In case anyone missed it in another thread:


"Many years after the war, a study by the U.S. Air Force, code named Sabre Measure Charlie, downgraded the F-86 Sabre-versus-MiG-15 “kill ratio” from more than 14 to 1 to a revised figure of 7 to 1. The latter figure remains the best achievement in any fighter campaign in history prior to Operation Desert Storm."


Source: http://www.koreanwar60.com/air-force



Ed

Well Ed, that sounds pretty close to the 345 Mig Losses recorded by Russian records & the 225 Mig losses reported by the PRC. Naturally I presume the majority of the losses are probably to Sabers & not lower performance jets, prop jobs or B29 bomber gunners.

[NickM]

Bump.