Shooting pilots in their parachutes

[dp_burke]

Originally Posted by Don Pearson

If it were Martians descending, we wouldn't think twice...

Don

Those poor Martians......

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by kb

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-24april44.jpg

Henry Brown's claim paperwork 24 April 1944

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-29april44.jpg

Henry Brown's claim 29 April 1944

Obviously he didn't feel he should hide that he was trying to shoot pilots.

My father had a 'dutch uncle' conversation with Henry discussing the fine line between 'rightous killing' and 'not so rightous killing'. The distinction in his mind was leaving the airplane..Henry developed an art form of sliding off to one side at close range and blasting the cockpit trying to kill the pilot... sometimes the film showed he was still shooting as the pilot separated.

My father did point out that there were a lot more 8th AF crews bailing out over Germany than German fighter pilots.

[AndreasB]

Originally Posted by chuckschmitz

Perhaps the question that needs to be asked at this time is what did the Geneva Conventions(of that time period) say, if anything, about shooting "distressed airmen?" I beleive the current conventions say that you can not shoot an airmen bailing out of an aircraft. Paratroopers are fair game.


Chuck

There was nothing in the conventions on this question at the time. You are right regarding the 1949 Convention. But as I said before, I can not see that as a logical step.

All the best

Andreas

[RT]

Excellent Rémi! I somehow knew we could count on you to re-nationalize this discussion, which is exactly what the moderator cautioned against. Thank you for collectively painting my entire nation of 310,000,000 people as a bunch of uncivilized barbarians. Were you in the military, Rémi? I was. Were you alive during World War II, Rémi? I was. Did the French drive the Germans out of France, Rémi, or did the Brits, Americans and Canadians do it? You had better be damn glad they came ashore and over the coast with hatred in their eyes instead of carrying a bouquet of flowers and kissing the Boche on both cheeks.

What for an answer! Sorry I am not french I am italian, that is why I never speak against the french I live there, concerning the americans the better for the whole XX. Century was to not interfere in the european affairs, did we in the american civil war ?? when the 3 rd Napoleon put his nose in Mejico that was a mistake. To end the concert one important thing is to say that the first, in importance, cause of the II.WW is the 1929 crisis, I hv to add that the present situation has the very bad smell of the 1929/1930ies years

Prepare the landing-crafts for the next one

Rémi

[Nick Beale]

And in the words of Monty Python's Graham Chapman: "this is getting silly."

Can't we all just stop now?

[dp_burke]

someones going attacking the martians when the arrive, thats just not right.

(Sorry guys) Chill

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

My friend Dan Taylor (an Australian who has lived in America for quite some time) wrote a very interesting 10,000 word article about this topic for his University history course, and I thought I'd include a couple of extracts.

Most significantly, Taylor notes that there is no evidence for an order by General Doolittle or any other American commander to strafe pilots in their parachutes, despite some claims by American pilots that such an order existed.

Walter Kornatz of the 55th FG had the following to say:

"I personally never saw any German pilots shoot any Americans in their parachutes. One of our pilots gloated that he had one hell of a dogfight with a 109 and eventually caused him to bail out. He said he shot him in his ‘chute because he was so good that he didn’t want to meet him in the air again at a later time. I gave him hell as I pointed out that the Germans had far more opportunity to shoot descending Americans in their ‘chutes than we did Germans and I would hate to see this practice started. At times over heavily defended German targets it looked like a snowstorm with so many B-17 crewmen floating down." (Astor, The Mighty Eighth: The Air War in Europe as Told by the Men Who Fought It, p.433)

A British pilot stated after the war:

“Inexperienced pilots were too often lost on their first patrols; veteran pilots were exhausted, jumpy, and vulnerable. The gay young fighter pilot was no more. They were raw-nerved, gray faced, listless and full of hatred … for those aeroplanes with their black crosses and crooked swastikas ... the younger pilots were shocked to see their seniors shooting at Germans in parachutes … it was considered (reprehensible) and not cricket. But it was done.” (Jablonski, Airwar, Volume 1, p.120)

Bud Anderson of the 357th FG later wrote:

"There were plenty of guys on both sides who would strafe a downed airman, on the theory that he could kill you tomorrow ... There was gallantry in the air war. There was cruelty too. There were some who strafed parachutes ... everyone draws his own moral line. That was mine. I never strafed parachutes ..." (Anderson, To Fly and Fight, p.111)

Captain Richard Petersen of the 357th FG later stated:

"Normally nobody, including the Germans, would shoot at anybody in a parachute. It just wasn't done. I mean there's no challenge in shooting a guy in a parachute for God's sake. I mean, he's had it. You can't miss." (Moore, Target Berlin, video, 1997)

Petersen then went on to describe an incident where a Bf 109 pilot was strafing bailed out bomber crewmen, so Petersen attacked him, ensuring the German bailed out, before strafing and killing him.

One obvious point: given that most of the aerial combats involving Americans were over German territory, the Americans would be much more likely to strafe bailed out Germans because those men would be returning to their units upon landing. In contrast, bailed out Americans would be taken prisoner, so there was no point in the Germans killing them.

The basic conclusion, supported by the evidence above, is that this practise was carried out by a small percentage of pilots of all nationalities, and although morally abhorrent (especially to someone living in the 21st century), it made very sound military sense (unless the pilot was going to become a prisoner of war).


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

[kaki3152]

Just to remember, the Japanese fighter pilots routinely strafed enemy airmen in parachutes.

[RolandF]

Andrew Arthy´s post says it all IMHO.
Can´t we stop further discussions?

Regards

Roland

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by RolandF

Andrew Arthy´s post says it all IMHO.
Can´t we stop further discussions?

Regards

Roland

Your wish is my command.