Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

[paulmcmillan]

Sgt Alec Dawson Payne 745798 Hit a lorry on take off day on at 2232 hrs on 23rd May 1941 in Spitfire IIa P8265 at Gravesend while with 74 Sqn and was seriously injured.

I next pick him up at 111 Sqn at Bone where as a Warrant Officer, he landed on wrong runway, starboard undercarriage collapsed on 12th December 1942 in Spitfire Vb EP773 on a Test Flight. Aircraft Cat B

Finally I track him down to an incident to Spitfire EP651 of 303 Sqn, when as a Warrant Officer he had an undercarriage failure, category AC on 6th July 1944.

Finally he had a claim of a Me109 destroyed on 2nd February 1941 with 74 Sqn

[Stig Jarlevik]

Guys

I am still not happy with the "solution" about two individuals.

We have one A.D. Payne (no service number), 501 Sq in France
Aces High (Flight Sergeant), score
11.5.40 He 111 (Shores/Foreman, check)
12.5.40 He 111 (Shores/Foreman, check)
14.5.40 He 111 (Shores/Foreman, check)
15.5.40 Do 17 (Shores, check; Foreman, no)
5.6.40 Bf 110 (Shores/Foreman, check)
Vanish into thin air, Shores says not the same man as in BoB

Men of the Battle of Britain (First printing, have not the issue Bruce got)
We have Alec Dawson Payne(service number 745798), Flight Sergeant.
Claims Payne was with 501 Sq in France, etc, and says posted 610 Sq 23.9.40. Claims
2.2.41 Bf 109 (Shores, no; Foreman, check)
Vanish into thin air

a) If we imagine that the photo of the "old" Payne is misidentified, we have (from the second hand sources I use) no proof we are talking about two persons! That is the photos in Listemann's and Wynn's books are of no value.
b) The new details in Wynn's book (second updated issue?) listed by Bruce does not automatically free our Payne from any service with 501 Sq. All we read is about his moblisation in 1939 which to me makes it more likely he was a fully trained reserve pilot and as such should be issued to an operational squadron or at least an OTU for some time and I find the details supplied by Wynn rather confusing! A trainee who goes solo after 9 days in July 1939 is sent to 1 ITW when war breaks out and is spending over one year in training until posted to an operational squadron while his country is screaming for pilots? More likely he spent time with 1 ITW for a while before being posted...
c) All other posts after that only relates to post BoB service of Payne and has no relevance to identify if we have one or two individuals.

So the question, to me, still remains if we are dealing with one or two individuals here. If anyone can enlighten me to what happened to the four or five victory Payne with 501 Sq and thereby ensure he cannot be the Payne of 610/74 Sq, I would be much obliged. I would also be interested to know why the "second" Payne spent 14 months in training from July 1939 to September 1940 before being posted to an operational Squadron.

Cheers
Stig

[paulmcmillan]

Stig

I actually agree with you, I believe that it is possible that 501 Sqn 'Payne' mis-identified in photos


Paul

[Bruce Lander]

Hi,
here is the original picture from "Ginger Lacey Fighter Pilot" by Bickers, also appears in Watkins book on 501 "Fear Nothing" clearly this man is nearer 30 than 20. The Flight Seargent stripes and crown are clearly visible. As Wynn gives a detailed account of the other Payne's 1939/40 activities I personally feel sure these are 2 different men.
Cheers,
Bruce Lander

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Bruce

Since you are still one up on me (I don't have your issue of Men of the Battle of Britain by Wynne) I have nothing to compare with. Is it possible to get a scan of the "younger" Payne as well?

Also the distance photo you have of "old" Payne is this
a) The same photo published everywhere, including Listeman's work?
b) 100% he is correctly identified?

If they are two individuals, it IS rather strange that "old Payne" has no service number and manage to disappear completely while "young Payne" is very slowly passing through to become a fighter pilot. If this had been from early 1938 to mid 1939 training period I would have understood, but the political situation went from bad to worse during this time, and at least I thought RAF were getting into gear from mid 1939 or so with their training schedule.

Cheers
Stig

[Brian]

Hi guys

Yes, I tend to go along with this conclusion.

It's surprising, though, that Payne was not decorated for his 4/6 victories.

Cheers
Brian

[Bruce Lander]

Hi Stig & Brian,

here is the photo from the 2nd edition of Wynn's book. Also in 1939/40 the rank of F/Sgt would have been a rank for an older NCO rather than Sgt.
Cheers
Bruce Lander

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Bruce

Have to admit there is not much resemblance between the two individuals....

So if they were not the same, what on earth happened to our "old" Payne from France? Somehow it now begins to look like he never came back and that this for some reason went unrecorded....

I simply have to admit I am not very happy without knowing what happened to Jammy. Obviously Shores is just as puzzled and finds him just as mysterious... (see his latest comments in Aces High Vol 2 from 1999)

Cheers
Stig

[Bruce Lander]

Hi Stig,

Mason in "Battle Over Britain" lists Jammy Payne as still on 501sqd as of 01 July 1940 !!!
The younger Payne was born in June 1920 in Croyden ! (see Free BMD site)

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Sorry I am very new to this. "Jammy Payne" was my wife's grandfather, born in 1900 and died in 1949. We are researching his records and hope to come back with more information soon. His initials were not A. D. but in fact A. A. (Alfred Alexander)