Information concerning loss of Oberlt. Ulrich von Gravenreuth - 27.09.1940 over England

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Jim P.

The WNr. is suspect because it appears several times later with nightfighter units and schools.

Bf 110D-0, 3147, Gravenreuth, Oblt. Ulrich Fr. von, , V., 15.(Z), LG 1, gelbe L, L1+BL, , , 27-Sep-40, Stkp. Crew KIA due to Flak and enemy fighters., Dup. WNr. - appears multiple times later!!, Kanal, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #2)-Vol.3; Taghon, LG 1, I, p.430; Vasco/Cornwell, Zerstörer, p.234; Mason, p.418; BoB, T&N, p.664; Menke, SKZ list, , bei Fl.Pl. Gatwick, 100%, F, Bf Fw. Otto Reinhold, ,

Why is the W. Nr. suspect? Batch of fifteen Bf 110 D-0s, W. Nr. 3134 to 3148 were built by Messerschmitt between March and April 1940 (ref:Messerschmitt Bf 110/Me 210/Me 410 by Petrick/Mankau).

Nothing suspect about the loss of this Bf 110 & W. Nr. at all, in my view.

[G.R.Morrison]

John,

You're perhaps misunderstanding Jim's statement about 3147 being "suspect." We don't doubt that it falls in the right Werknummer range, but if it crashes in England in 1940, it's unlikely (!) to show up later in other reports of incidents in NJG or Schule units. What this means is that 3147 could be a typo for the Gravenreuth / Reinhold loss. There's no shortage of typos in the loss reports, with transposed numbers the most-frequently encountered. If those clerks had only known how their work would be "inspected" so many decades later...

The best to you on Boxing Day,
GRM

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by G.R.Morrison

John,

You're perhaps misunderstanding Jim's statement about 3147 being "suspect." We don't doubt that it falls in the right Werknummer range, but if it crashes in England in 1940, it's unlikely (!) to show up later in other reports of incidents in NJG or Schule units. What this means is that 3147 could be a typo for the Gravenreuth / Reinhold loss. There's no shortage of typos in the loss reports, with transposed numbers the most-frequently encountered. If those clerks had only known how their work would be "inspected" so many decades later...

The best to you on Boxing Day,
GRM

Tell me about it! Peter Cornwell and I have never been able to square the following (both 18 August 1940):
Bf 110 C-4 (probably upgraded C-2)
U8+BB
W. Nr. 3102
Proske & Möbius

and

Bf 110 C-2
3U+EP
W. Nr. 3102
Kästner & Kaffenberger

Also the Bf 110 of Koepsell & Schmidt on 27th September 1940 having one W. Nr. entered in the QMs returns, and a different one on the part of the actual aircraft found at the crash site (per information from Ken Wakefield).

Bloody Luftwaffe clerks indeed!!!

The point I was making is that given 3147 with V.(Z)/LG 1 has a build date some months earlier than the loss, that much is consistent. With the other entries in the loss/damage list, it throws everything up in the air.

[Johannes]

Hi

Apart from his claim for a Hurricane at 1216 hrs on 30th August 1940, his
bordfunker Fw Otto Reinhold made claims on 16th May 1940 for a Curtiss at 0655 hrs, and a Hurricane on 15th August 1940 at 1837 hrs.

Regards

Johannes

[Nordpol54]

@ Jim P.

To add to my previous comment - WNr. 3147 appears in 3 later Bf 110 losses. Odds are the first may be wrong versus the later 3. And, according to the loss data I have, there are no 6-digit WNr. blocks for Bf 110s that begin 'xx3'.

Very strange but indeed most interesting. Thanks for this!

y/f
Norbert

[Nordpol54]

@ all,

by not knowing the first two numbers of the Werk-Nr. ??3147 may it quite be possible that these last four digits have been occured more than two or three times in loss lists etc. but in every case for different a/c?
Just an idea...

Best Regards
Norbert