WNr.2668

[ouidjat]

Yes, very interesting conversation... I wasn't expected such development! Just a quick answer ... I see it's not possible.
This doesn't concern only one plane: any idea how much? Any possibility to get a figure?

[ouidjat]

Dead end?

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

Just checked my records.

Bf 109E-7 WNr 2668 appear in the 5-Tage-Meldung from 26.8. - 31.8.41, as an aircraft received for repair.

Thus one would suspect there should be a loss report from shortly before this date.

But - and I guess this is of general importance - looking at the so-called Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen of units, there is one issue we tend to overlook - namely the column Überholung or Overhaul (major maintenance).

The units sent worn aircraft for overhaul to for example Erla VII. My guess is that the aircraft in question was sent from a unit to the repair shops for major overhaul - for example engine change and/or weapons upgrades - and then on to JG 5 shortly after.

Looking at the Flugzeugzuweisungen to Luftflotte 5, we see that they received a Zuweisung for 2 Bf 109E-7 on August 30th 1941, and we also see that WNr 2668 was gone from the inventory of Erla VII by the next 5-days report staring on September 2nd (incidentally there is also a zuweisung of a Bf 109E-7 on this date for Luftflotte 5)

Regards,
Andreas B

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Looked into what I use as a main reference for the early Bf 109's, the book 'Messerschmitt Bf 109 ja saksan sotatalous' by Hannu Valtonen.

The book is in finnish, something which probably will render it as unavailable as a reference for a large part of the community.

For the aircraft we are discussing here, the following entries from the overview of production series in the book will be of interest.

Will add more later - I am so %&/%&/ by the fact that there seems to be no way of entering a table into the threads here... the BBCode should contain a [table] tag, but for some reason it does not show on the BBCode overview on this forum.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Tested a new thing and tried to create a small Excel tabel for these data on my SkyDrive:

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx...507&parid=root

As we can see there, according to Valtonen the airframes in the Werknummer series 2655-2696 was E-1's manufactured at Arado.

I have read thorugh the original movement records from Erla and repair records from a bunch of other companies, and come across a lot of discrepancies, most of them connected to what the companies state as being Bf 109D-1 series Werknummer.

A lot of the Werknummer reported does not at all fit the WNr series as reported by Valtonen - in fact they belong to series not listed as a part of the Bf 109 series at all.

I will not yet speculate towards a solution... but were maybe more Bf 109D's built than we have known?

Regards,
Andreas B

[Stig Jarlevik]

Andreas

There are quite some question marks as it already is in Valtonen's book. I don't read Finnish, so what I say is of course just relating to the numbers and not what might be explained in the text.

Bf 109A WNr 760-810, 883-884, 994-997, 1000-1009
Not sure how he wants to put in the 20 known A-1 (or A-0 if you read other sources). (Prien in JFV Teil 1 avoids the A model problem by not listing them at all.)

Bf 109B WNr 301-375, 0998-1073, 3001-3090
Wnr 1000-1009 are listed as both A models and B models
(Prien: WNr 272-416, 540-617, 998-1064, 1701-1719, 3000-3089, also explaining that not all of the WNr were delivered, at least not as B models)

Bf 109C WNr 1720-1777
(Prien: WNr 1720-1777)

Bf 109D: WNr as per your list, but why would Mtt build four D models WNr 1189-1192 before building their B models?
(Prien does not commit himself totally with regard to WNr of the D models, although he states WNr 3090-3170 was for 80 D-1 when this in fact makes 81 airframes. Since he has Fieseler building B-1 WNr 3000-3089 instead of Valtonen who has Fieseler building 3001-3090, he of course has to. However the interesting fact with Prien is that he lists many other blocks which Valtonen does not do, such as 2110-2150, 2365-2370, 2440-2476, 2513-2625, 2650-2730, 2812-2940, but here as well state that not all were delivered, at least not as D models.)

Bf 109E-0 WNr 1781-1790
(Prien: WNr 1781-1790)

Continuing with the E-1 models creates more and more differences between Valtonen and Prien, but I would like to know why Valtonen puts the first Mtt E-1 airframe as Wnr 1778 and the first E-0 as WNr 1781. Makes no sense to me...

Cheers
Stig

Bf 109