Marseille's victory claim disputed

[biltongbru]

Hi, I did this interview with SAAF No. 5 sqdn fifgter pilot veteran Cecil Golding and he has an interesting view on Hans-Joachim Marseille's victory claims of 3 June 1942.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqVTw-WuVes

[Oberst]

Thanks for posting this! Also,yes, double or more claiming on the same aircraft does happen.

[ahafan]

Hello'
I think Marseille when he said he lost No aircraft ,his Flight of me 109s not lost.
sharon

[mars]

10 clams vs 5 actual losses? That was not bad at all, after reading so many books about the WWII air combat in all theatres, I found normal overclaims for every single airforces of WWII were about 3 or 4 to 1, so JG 27's overclaims in that air combat is well in the reasonable range.

[biltongbru]

I think the main aspect of Mr. Golding's concern is that it is said in history books that SAAF 5 sqdn on that day moved into a defensive circle. According to Cecil, their No 5 SAAF squadron never flew the defensive circle. He acknowledges the over claim aspect to be an unintentional std practise on both sides.

Their squadron lost more than 30 pilots and 3 OC's in 3 months, nearly 3 times an operational squadron strength. The Tomahawks were at very bad odds with the 109's

[ahafan]

( circles) Wagon wheels-cowboys did?

[Nokose]

From the interview I understood Mr. Golding to say that Marseille claimed 6 victories but his "Press agent" stated 10. There were 5 actual losses. Were there any forced landings that were recovered and thus not included as losses. I can see a pilot shooting down an aircraft and honestly claiming a victory but then later on its recovered and repaired. So in the unit records its showing up as only no loss or only a few losses.

[Kapper]

Nokose

In Shores 'Fighter's over the Desert' he states the following;

"At 1215 hours eleven Tomahawks of 5 SAAF Squadron were ordered off on a sweep, but Lt. Hirst and Lt. P.C.Groble collided head–on while taxiing, both aircraft being damaged and Groble hurt. Nine aircraft got off, meeting Ju87s of I./StG3 near Bir Hacheim; the squadron was flying in line astern, and turned somewhat shakily to the attack, but hitting the Stukas squarely. Capt Botha claimed three and shared a fourth with Wg.Cdr. Beresford,, who shot down one himself. Maj. Frost, Lt. Gaymans, Lt. Muir and 2/Lt. Golding each claimed one, Goldign sharing a second with Capt. Morrison. Two Stuka pilots and a gunner were killed, and one of weach captured. Six Bf109s of I./JG27 were flying escort, and one of these flown by Oblt. Marseille, attacked the Tomahawks with great effect. Despite the fact that his cannon jammed after only ten shots, leaving him only his two machine-guns, Marseille’s masterly shooting abilility enabled him to claim no less than six of the South African fighters at 1352, 25, 27, 28, 29 and 1333 hours, landing himself at 1352 hours, Capt Pare went down in flames, being reported to have first shot down a Bf109, 2/Lt. Martin crashed slightly wounded, at Bir Hacheim, being reported safe with the Free French. Capt. Morrison, Lt. Muir and 2/Lt. Golding failed to return, all being reported in Tobruk hospital with injuies on the 5th. Capt. Botha suffered damage to his aircraft, but made it back to base, where he force landed. He was recommended for an immediate DFC for his part in this combat.

It seems that there were other British fighters accompanying the South Africans, as Marsielles reported initially meeting twelve to fourteen aircraft, and six Bf109s of II./JG53 also on the escort mission, attacked six fighters, claiming three. British records show that a Hurricane failed to return and another crash-landed in British lines, but the squadron is not known.

Four Bf109s of II./JG27 on a ‘Freie Jagd’ in the area a few minutes later encountered a Kittyhawk, which Uffz. Geirster shot down at 1335 hours , causing it to crash-land, and this loss to is confirmed by British records, though again the squadron is unknown. "

The 10 claims were.

03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 70 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 3 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.22 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 423B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 71 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 5 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.25 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 424B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 72 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 5 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.27 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 425B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 73 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 7 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.28 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 426B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 74 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 10 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.29 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 427B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 75 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 7 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.33 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 428B
03.06.42 Ltn. Ernst Klager: 17 7./JG 53 Curtiss P-40 £ - 12.20 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676 – 688B
03.06.42 Hptm. Helmut Belser: 30 8./JG 53 Curtiss P-40 £ - 12.25 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676 – 689B
03.06.42 Hptm. Helmut Belser: 31 8./JG 53 Curtiss P-40 £ - 12.28 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676 – 690B
03.06.42 Uffz. Helmut Gierster: 3 5./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 10 km. östl. Bir Hacheim 12.23 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr. 73 – 312B


The 6 for Marsielles were
Tomahawk IIB (AK384) 5 SAAF SQN Capt. Robin Pare – OK shot down in flames by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (?????) 5 SAAF SQN 2/Lt. Martin – slightly WIA crashed after shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (AK421) 5 SAAF SQN Capt. Morrison – FTR WIA shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (AM401) 5 SAAF SQN Lt. Muir – FTR WIA shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (AN262) 5 SAAF SQN 2/Lt. Douglas Golding – FTR WIA shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (?????) 5 SAAF SQN Capt. Adrian .J. Botha – OK ac damaged by Bf109 forcelanded back at base – sweep 3rd June 1942

The 3 for III./JG53 are suggested to be an unidentified Hurricane unit. I have not been able to find this unit but maybe someone else has the information?

The final claim for 5/JG27, I believe is the following aircraft from 112 Squadron which was damaged and recovered.
3/6/42 Kittyhawk Mk. I (AL121) Sgt Clark A/C Damaged Cat 2 in combat.

Keeping in mind that this book was written in 1969, someone may have the information to confirm the missing British losses.

The tally was 6 fighters lost 3 forcelanded for 10 claims which in my opinion is not too bad.

The biggest query is the unidentified British squadrons that suffered losses. I'm told that Fighters over the Desert is being re-written with a lot of new information, maybe this will all be ansered then.

Regards,

Craig..

[biltongbru]

Originally Posted by Kapper

Nokose

In Shores 'Fighter's over the Desert' he states the following;

"At 1215 hours eleven Tomahawks of 5 SAAF Squadron were ordered off on a sweep, but Lt. Hirst and Lt. P.C.Groble collided head–on while taxiing, both aircraft being damaged and Groble hurt. Nine aircraft got off, meeting Ju87s of I./StG3 near Bir Hacheim; the squadron was flying in line astern, and turned somewhat shakily to the attack, but hitting the Stukas squarely. Capt Botha claimed three and shared a fourth with Wg.Cdr. Beresford,, who shot down one himself. Maj. Frost, Lt. Gaymans, Lt. Muir and 2/Lt. Golding each claimed one, Goldign sharing a second with Capt. Morrison. Two Stuka pilots and a gunner were killed, and one of weach captured. Six Bf109s of I./JG27 were flying escort, and one of these flown by Oblt. Marseille, attacked the Tomahawks with great effect. Despite the fact that his cannon jammed after only ten shots, leaving him only his two machine-guns, Marseille’s masterly shooting abilility enabled him to claim no less than six of the South African fighters at 1352, 25, 27, 28, 29 and 1333 hours, landing himself at 1352 hours, Capt Pare went down in flames, being reported to have first shot down a Bf109, 2/Lt. Martin crashed slightly wounded, at Bir Hacheim, being reported safe with the Free French. Capt. Morrison, Lt. Muir and 2/Lt. Golding failed to return, all being reported in Tobruk hospital with injuies on the 5th. Capt. Botha suffered damage to his aircraft, but made it back to base, where he force landed. He was recommended for an immediate DFC for his part in this combat.

It seems that there were other British fighters accompanying the South Africans, as Marsielles reported initially meeting twelve to fourteen aircraft, and six Bf109s of II./JG53 also on the escort mission, attacked six fighters, claiming three. British records show that a Hurricane failed to return and another crash-landed in British lines, but the squadron is not known.

Four Bf109s of II./JG27 on a ‘Freie Jagd’ in the area a few minutes later encountered a Kittyhawk, which Uffz. Geirster shot down at 1335 hours , causing it to crash-land, and this loss to is confirmed by British records, though again the squadron is unknown. "

The 10 claims were.

03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 70 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 3 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.22 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 423B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 71 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 5 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.25 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 424B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 72 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 5 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.27 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 425B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 73 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 7 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.28 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 426B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 74 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 10 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.29 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 427B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 75 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 7 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.33 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 428B
03.06.42 Ltn. Ernst Klager: 17 7./JG 53 Curtiss P-40 £ - 12.20 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676 – 688B
03.06.42 Hptm. Helmut Belser: 30 8./JG 53 Curtiss P-40 £ - 12.25 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676 – 689B
03.06.42 Hptm. Helmut Belser: 31 8./JG 53 Curtiss P-40 £ - 12.28 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676 – 690B
03.06.42 Uffz. Helmut Gierster: 3 5./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 10 km. östl. Bir Hacheim 12.23 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr. 73 – 312B


The 6 for Marsielles were
Tomahawk IIB (AK384) 5 SAAF SQN Capt. Robin Pare – OK shot down in flames by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (?????) 5 SAAF SQN 2/Lt. Martin – slightly WIA crashed after shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (AK421) 5 SAAF SQN Capt. Morrison – FTR WIA shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (AM401) 5 SAAF SQN Lt. Muir – FTR WIA shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (AN262) 5 SAAF SQN 2/Lt. Douglas Golding – FTR WIA shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (?????) 5 SAAF SQN Capt. Adrian .J. Botha – OK ac damaged by Bf109 forcelanded back at base – sweep 3rd June 1942

The 3 for III./JG53 are suggested to be an unidentified Hurricane unit. I have not been able to find this unit but maybe someone else has the information?

The final claim for 5/JG27, I believe is the following aircraft from 112 Squadron which was damaged and recovered.
3/6/42 Kittyhawk Mk. I (AL121) Sgt Clark A/C Damaged Cat 2 in combat.

Keeping in mind that this book was written in 1969, someone may have the information to confirm the missing British losses.

The tally was 6 fighters lost 3 forcelanded for 10 claims which in my opinion is not too bad.

The biggest query is the unidentified British squadrons that suffered losses. I'm told that Fighters over the Desert is being re-written with a lot of new information, maybe this will all be ansered then.

Regards,

Craig..

Thanks Kapper for this great reply!

It is so interesting but sad that Robin Pare was one of Cecil's great buddies and he was killed on that day.

In the interview Cecil admits the fact of optimistic claims on both sides but he read the book on Marseille written by Franz Kurowski and in this book it is said that Cecil's squadron formed a Lufbery defensive circle and then Marseille just potted the South Africans one by one out of the sky. Cecil said that their squadron never did this circle formation and especially not on that day.

Please note there is a mistake in your information: The "Douglas Golding" was a SAAF 4 sqdn pilot and not 5 sqdn. It should be " Cecil Alexander Golding"

[mars]

Well, I would be hesitant to use Franz Kurowski's book as a reference.