Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 17th August 2012, 02:13
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 710
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France

Hallo Paul,

Superb information, thank you very much. It is great to have more names of those on board. I wonder what were the circumstances of Victor Moreau's death if he died on the 25th.

I am more convinced than ever that most or all of the deaths and injuries took place when the S.73 'OO-AGS' crashed. I do not recall ever seeing a photo of this wreck however.

Regards and thanks again,

Martin.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 17th August 2012, 11:18
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,218
paulmcmillan
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France

I have dug out the following from AB Impressments file (baring in mind info now 50 years old)

ARMSTRONG WHITWORTH A.W.27 ENSIGN I
Twelve Ensigns were used by N.A.C. from September 1939 until June 1940. During the evacuation from France three Ensigns were lost : G-ADSZ ' Elysian ' was attacked by the Me 109s and destroyed by fire at Merville on 23.5.40. G-ADTA ' Euryalus ' was returning from Merville soon after the destruction of 'DSZ when it was fired on by German ground units. Two engines put out of action and the Ensign limped into Lympne and crash-landed. G-ADSX ' Ettrick ' was abandoned at Le Bourget A/P on June 1st after a severe air raid had rendered the airliner unserviceable.
Two Ensigns, G-ADST ' Elsinore ' and G-ADTB ' Echo ', were delivered to No. 24 Sqn. at Hendon from Birchan Newton on 11.5.40 and were attached to ' E ' Flight. They retained their civilian status and were returned to B.O.A.C. towards the end of 1940.

DOUGLAS DC-E (Dakota)
Two DC3s of Sabena, 00-AUH and 'AUI, escaped to the U.K. in May 1940 and were taken over by the RAF. There are conflicting stories concerning their fate and the offical Air Ministry one is, in our opinion, the least likely. They claim that both aircraft were returned to Sabena and during February 1942 they left the U.K. for the Belgian Congo, but something went wrong en-route and they were interned by the Vichy authorities.

Their more likely stories are detailed below.

2093 OO-AUH Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 24 Sqn. on the 11th from Speke and used by "E" Flight. Returned to Sabena in June and flown to Algiers where it was interned on August 27th 1940 by Vichy France. Most likely taken over by the Germans in 1942 and flown by
Lufthasa in civil markings.

2098 00-AUI Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 24 Sqn on the
11th from Speke and attached to "E" Flight. On the morning of May 23rd, OO-AUI was being loaded with food and ammunition at Croydon, in company with five Ensigns and two S.73s, for isolated troops at Merville,
France. The formation arrived safely at their destination, but during the unloading they were attacked by two Bf 109s; one Ensign was destroyed and the engines of one S.73 were made u/s by cannon shells. The remaining aircraft took-off and flew back towards the U.K., but were fired at by ground units en route and both the S.73 and OO-AUI were shot down near Calais.

SAVOIA-MARCHETTI S.73
The S.73 had accommodation for a crew of four and eighteen passengers. Of Italian design, it followed the current Continental trend towards three engines and monoplane wing. The first five delivered to the Belgian airline SABENA were Italian built, but in 1936/137 seven S.73's were built under licence in Belgium by S.A.B.C.A. for SABENA.
Seven managed to escape to the U.K. in May 1940 and were taken over by the RAF. OO-AGL, 'GO, 'GQ and 'CS were powered by three Gnome-et-Rhone K.9s, while OO-AGX. 'GY and 'G2 had been re-engined with Wrigbt
Cyclone GR.1820-G.2 motors.

30001 OO-AGL Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 271 Sqn. on the 12th and returned to SABENA on the 31st. lnterned by the Vichy authorities in Algiers on 22.9.40 and not heard of again.

30005 OO-AGO Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No, 271 Sqn. on the 12th and returned to SABENA on the 31st. Interned by the Vichy authorities while en route for the Congo on 22.9.40.

OO-AGQ Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 271 Sqn, on tbe
12th and returned to SABENA on the 31st. OO-AGQ disappeared during the war and was probably interned by the Vichy authorities along with 'AGL

OO-AGS Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 271 Sqn. on the 12th (May 1940) and was shot down near Calais, while flying back from Merville, on 23.5.40. (See under DC-3 for full story.)

OO-AGX NU 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 24 Sqn. from Speke the same day and attached to "E" E'lt. Went missing at 19.00 hrs. from France on 23.5.40 and was SOC on the 27th.

OO-AGY Nil 14.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 24 Sqn on the 15th and attached to "E" Flt. Went missing at 19.00 his. from France on 23.5.40 and was SOC on the 27th.

OO-AGZ NI1 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 24 Sqn from Speke that same day and attached to "E" Flt. Captured by the Germans at Merville, France, after being damaged by a strafing Bf 109 on 23.5.40.

I note that more inconsitences on this - Mentions 2 S.73 going to Merville but there are 4 losses (OO-AGS, OO-AGX, OO-AGY, OO-AGZ) on 23.5.40!

I would be interested to see what Colin Cummings book on Transport losses during WW2 has on this subject
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 17th August 2012, 22:28
Pieter H Pieter H is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 297
Pieter H is on a distinguished road
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France

I tend to support Martin in his theory that effectively only one aircraft was shot down at Arques/St Omer on the 23rd: the SM73 OO-AGS.
This also explains the conflicting info in different sources where the Belgian crew members are sometimes linked to the SM73 and sometimes to the DC3. Due to the confusion of the day aircraft identities got mixed, but only the SM73 seems a confirmed loss. The mix of 271 and 24 Sqn passengers and crew probably also did not help.

My interpretation is then that all the pictures at the beginning of this threat are then indeed of one single aircraft: the DC3 OO-AUI. This aircraft really looks to have stayed behind completely undamaged on an airfield. My guess is still Merville. Alternatively it made a proper emergency landing on another large and deserted airfield. There it was found by the Germans. What is then surprising is that it later was burned, whereas the Germans were pretty eager in using any flyworthy aircraft they captured in the Luftwaffe or Lufthansa. So an act of sabotage? The alternative of strafing by the RAF as suggested is of course also possible.

The last question is then how and why apparently so many aircraft were captured in Algiers. Further searching in Sabena sources reveals, however, that after many of the aircraft got returned to them by May 31, airline services were resumed in Africa. Main hubs were Oran and Algiers in the north, connecting to especially the Belgian colonies Congo and Ruanda. On June 25, when the Vichy-German armistice was signed, the Vichy government used the opportunity to confiscate all foreign/allied airliners on their territory, mainly at Algiers. That's how the DC3 OO-AUH and several SM73's ended up in Vichy hands and were then apparently given to Italy.
Furthermore, to clarify the confusion on how many SM73's participated on the 23rd:
http://aerobernie.ae.funpic.de/Sabena.html
lists only two SM73's lost on the 23rd of May: the AGS shot down and the AGZ abandoned. The AGX and AGY listed in Paul's overview as also lost that day were in fact amongst those captured at Algiers and ended up in Italian service. They were written of in November in Brindisi.

Regads, Pieter
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 17th August 2012, 23:15
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 710
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France

The article in 'AIR ENTHUSIAST', No. 13 explains the reason for the two other 'missing' S.73s on 23 May 1940.
Though supposed to return to Britain it appears the crews of OO-AGX and OO-AGY decided instead to fly to Marseilles-Marignane airfield in the south of France. Sabena had a station there to facilitate the air route to the Belgian colony of the Congo. Apparently 24 Squadron did not learn of this development for several days, hence the listing as 'missing'.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 18th August 2012, 13:45
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,751
Chris Goss is a jewel in the roughChris Goss is a jewel in the roughChris Goss is a jewel in the rough
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France

To add further to this, I obtained this photo on eBay and it appears different to the SABENA photo seen earlier-look at the engines and camouflage? I could be wrong though!

Last edited by Chris Goss; 17th March 2015 at 18:19.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 20th August 2012, 23:31
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,184
Stig Jarlevik will become famous soon enoughStig Jarlevik will become famous soon enough
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France

Guys

This one is tricky but very interesting. Now if we cannot locate an "unknown" DC-3 we simply have to look at the same aircraft. OO-AUI is thus a very likely candidate. However what I would like to know is why the Germans blow up the aircraft. I cannot vouch for the two photos Peter came up with saying "24 Sq 23.5.40", but the one I supplied show it with German soldiers and if the two Peter supplied were taken at the same time, they all show a pretty much intact aircraft, certainly not hit by AA-fire. But why blow up such a useful aircraft? From the photos supplied of the highly damaged airframe the whole nose-section is gone!

I must confess I still have a nagging worry we might look at two different aircraft....

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 21st August 2012, 10:20
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,751
Chris Goss is a jewel in the roughChris Goss is a jewel in the roughChris Goss is a jewel in the rough
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France

Stig
Couldn't agree more. Peter C is on holiday for 10 days so I wonder what he will add to this on his return?
Chris
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
103 SQ Battle Losses during the Phoney War Larry Hickey Allied and Soviet Air Forces 13 21st October 2011 19:36
Ju 88 Losses in Convoy Battle INM@RLM Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 23rd April 2011 17:34
Dornier 17 published page 137 of The Battle of France, T&N Bertrand H Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 6th January 2011 01:22
Battle of France video interviews with Stuka Pilot biltongbru Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 21 20th July 2010 21:17
Unclaimed Ju88 losses in the Battle of Britain Larry Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 8th January 2005 17:38


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net