Jg 27 Bf 109s w.nr. 2623 ans 2747(?)

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Without question the first a/c is W.Nr. 2023. An excellent photo of this scoreboard exists in a private collection, only displaying 17 instead of 18 victory tabs as seen here. It is reputed to be the a/c of Hptm. Wolfgang Lippert, the Gr Kdr of II./JG27. However, the problem is that photos now exist of this a/c with both 17 and 18 victory tabs, and Lippert's official tally was only 16 by 01.11.40, his last victory in the west during 1940. His unit flew in the Balkan Campaign during April-May, 1941, but he scored no more victories until the first day of the Russian Campaign, June 22nd, when he officially scored his 17th and 18th victories. This would suggest that the photo was taken in Russia, but the a/c displays no yellow fuselage band. The foliage however, indicates at least mid-spring through early fall, so I'm not sure where that leaves us. It's possible that this is Lippert during the Battle of Britain, but displaying some tabs that represent victories that were never confirmed. Or else this is at the beginning of the Russian Campaign and Lippert's a/c had not yet received it's yellow fuselage band. Or it is NOT Lippert's a/c but belonged to some other pilot in a II Gruppe.

I'm very interested in seeing how this settles out.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[ouidjat]

Morrison,

My sentence wasn't complete then...
I'm not talking about the fin against the rudder I'm talking about the arrow up for a plane shot down in air and an arrow pointing down for a plane destroyed on ground.
I don't remember to have seen that except on JG 1/JG 3 planes.

Regards, Franck.

Sentence corrected.

[chuckschmitz]

Hello all,

The photos came from a batch of 18 during a recent eBay buy. Unfortunately there were no dates or locations on the photos, only what the seller supplied. I've checked in the few references I have and have not found anything to help. I've attached two more and will clean-up a couple more to perhaps aid in finding an answer.

Chuck

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Franck raises an interesting possibility--that some of the victory tabs on W.Nr. 2023 have down arrowhead for destruction of Allied a/c on the ground, with others perhaps have up arrowheads for air victories. The most famous example of this practice was the scoreboard of Wilhelm Balthasar of JG3 (Oesau later inherited this a/c, and was also photographed with it). However, the scoreboard on 2023 may not actually show up and down arrowheads. The photo I referred to in a private collection is quite clear and shows 17 standard victory tabs with no up or down arrowheads on them. These would have had to have been added between the 17 and 18th victory tabs. So that is probably not what we are seeing. It is in interesting thought, however, that ground claims, if present, could account for the discrepancy in Lippert's "official" score by the end of the BoB, and the tail scoreboard.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by G.R.Morrison

Franck,

BTW, my last name has just one 's' - although 'ass' has two, and sometimes I'm mistaken for one. ;-)

GRM

I would have never thought so!

[Stig Jarlevik]

Excuse me for barging in

Chuck
What makes you believe the photos are from II./JG 27 in the first place?
Statement on the back side or just seller's own statement?

All
I must say Franck has a point. Arrows were not common and to me the most famous one using that was von Werra....

With regard to the WNr, I can only see the two digits 2 reasonably clear, but perhaps they are much better visible on the originals.
Having said that why is the last digit 5 impossible? Are WNr 2025 and 2625 totally out of the picture?

Cheers
Stig

[Larry Hickey]

Stig,

You didn't read my posts. There is NO QUESTION that the W.Nr. is 2023, based upon another very clear, close-up photo of this tail that exists. Nor is there any question that this is a II Gr a/c. See the horizontal bar on the posted photo. The only other possibility is a JG Stab a/c. This photo, however, has previously been attributed to Wolfang Lippert, the II./JG27 Gr Kdr by a very reliable source. Now we're just trying to figure out how this might fit into Lippert's career.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[chuckschmitz]

Stig,

All I have is what the previous owner said. But as Larry points out my posted photo does at least indicate a II Gruppe unit. The original does indeed show 2023. The second w.nr. is definitely up in the air at this time. I just did a re-scan and it is 2023.

[Jim P.]

Lippert also made 5 claims in Spain - is it possible that these are included? Seems rather unlikely, but I raise that as a possibilty. The Bf 109E WNr. 2023 we know was Lippert's machine from some point during the BoB - we have other photos that confirm that fact.

Ultimately there weren't that many guys that had at least 18 claims at the end of the BoB, so either the score includes ground claims or, as Larry suggests, this photo is from the spring of 41 and the theater markings were more forward on the machine. JG 27 was one of units that went East with the Bf 109E.

[chuckschmitz]

Going back to the other photo I've been playing with the scan and the only other possibility is 2161.

Chuck