Question regarding loss of 2 Bomber Gruppenkomandeure on 22 April 1943

[Matti Salonen]

Loss info on Hptm Jungklaus' crew:
1943-04-22, Stab III/KG 3, Ju 88A-4, 144615, 5K+BD, Poti, Unbekannt um 18.45 Uhr. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer (Gruppenkommandeur) Hptm Jungklaus, Siegfried, vermißt
Beobachter Olt Röbert, Johannes, vermißt
Bordfunker Uffz Lenz, Alois, vermißt
Bordschütze Fw Oerter, Theodor, vermißt

Matti

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the kind comments!

There doesn't seem to have been anything of note going on during 11 April. But KTB/OKW does state that the port of Poti was hit the evening of 22 April by a large force of bombers under Luftflotte 4. Several fires in the harbor and numerous hits in the inner basin were observed.

There are several members here who have all Luftwaffe losses in easily accessible data bases in which they could look up 11 April and 22 April for you and list all of the losses in the North Caucasia area. Unfortunately, my data is all on microfilm and it would take more hours than I have to dig it out.

Hopefully, one of these fellows will step forward and answer your questions for 11 and 22 April.

Larry

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the kind comments!

There doesn't seem to have been anything of note going on during 11 April. But KTB/OKW does state that the port of Poti was hit the evening of 22 April by a large force of bombers under Luftflotte 4. Several fires in the harbor and numerous hits in the inner basin were observed.

There are several members here who have all Luftwaffe losses in easily accessible data bases in which they could look up 11 April and 22 April for you and list all of the losses in the North Caucasia area. Unfortunately, my data is all on microfilm and it would take more hours than I have to dig it out.

Hopefully, one of these fellows will step forward and answer your questions for 11 and 22 April.

Larry

Dear Larry,

You're welcome! Thank you for the additional information about Poti, it looks like Jungklaus and Thiel were lost on an important mission, which makes things even more interesting! Having tried to remember other instances when two bomber Kommandeure were lost on the same day, I could only think of Paepcke and Kollewe over Malta on 17 October 1942. Do you know of any other cases? If there were only these two, it would make the Kuban incident all the more remarkable.

I understand the microfilm issue very well, my limited experience of reading them greatly increases my respect for researchers who wade through them!

Originally Posted by Matti Salonen

Loss info on Hptm Jungklaus' crew:

Matti

Dear Matti,

Thank you for stepping in once again! A comparison of the loss locations indicates that the aircraft were lost a long distance from one another. It’s interesting that the cause of the Jungklaus loss is listed as “unknown”, yet a precise time is given. Is this a common occurrence in the records and if so, could it suggest a non-combat loss?

May I ask if you have other Luftwaffe losses listed for the 11 or 22 April in this area? I’ve had a look at Andreas Brekken’s summary loss lists and they state that 5 aircraft were lost by Jagdgeschwader 3 and 52 on 11 April, but there is no information for the 22nd.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[Larry deZeng]

Paul T. wrote in part:

Having tried to remember other instances when two bomber Kommandeure were lost on the same day, I could only think of Paepcke and Kollewe over Malta on 17 October 1942. Do you know of any other cases? If there were only these two, it would make the Kuban incident all the more remarkable.

No, Paul, I sure don't. It's just not something that I would have been on the lookout for as I trawled my way through the Luftwaffe records.

There might be some more information on the 22 April raid in:

Waiss, Walter. Boelcke Archiv, Band V: Chonik Kampfgeschwader Nr. 27 Boelcke, Teil 4: 01.01.1943 – 31.12.1943.

This title would have been published just 3 or 4 years ago and had a very tiny press run, perhaps no more than 600 copies or so. It's therefore quite rare, but perhaps someone here might have it and could look up 22 April 1943 for you. Did you lose a family member in this raid, or is it just curiosity?

L.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

No, Paul, I sure don't. It's just not something that I would have been on the lookout for as I trawled my way through the Luftwaffe records.

There might be some more information on the 22 April raid in:

Waiss, Walter. Boelcke Archiv, Band V: Chonik Kampfgeschwader Nr. 27 Boelcke, Teil 4: 01.01.1943 – 31.12.1943.

This title would have been published just 3 or 4 years ago and had a very tiny press run, perhaps no more than 600 copies or so. It's therefore quite rare, but perhaps someone here might have it and could look up 22 April 1943 for you. Did you lose a family member in this raid, or is it just curiosity?

L.

Larry,

That's fine, the only reason I asked is that your books often mention the losses of formation leaders. I would of course be glad if someone quoted that very rare Weiss volume, but since I don't have a personal connection to or research interest in the matter, I don't think I can lay claim to that much of somebody's time. The reason I became interested in the Kuban bridgehead specifically is because the operational-level air actions in that area are given much attention in Soviet sources, as described in this book:

Hardesty, V., & Grinberg, I. Red Phoenix Rising: The Soviet Air Force in World War II. University Press of Kansas.

In the absence of any campaign history, I am trying to use any proxy sources that I come across to try to gauge whether these battles had a significant influence on the course of the air war or not. Of course, whatever happened on 22 April doesn't answer this question one way or another, but I thought that is worthwhile to try to establish the facts of this particular day, because the prominent casualties make it interesting for its own sake.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Originally Posted by Matti Salonen

Loss info on Hptm Jungklaus' crew:
1943-04-22, Stab III/KG 3, Ju 88A-4, 144615, 5K+BD, Poti, Unbekannt um 18.45 Uhr. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer (Gruppenkommandeur) Hptm Jungklaus, Siegfried, vermißt
Beobachter Olt Röbert, Johannes, vermißt
Bordfunker Uffz Lenz, Alois, vermißt
Bordschütze Fw Oerter, Theodor, vermißt

Matti

Hello Matti,

This Ju88 was claimed by Poti AA Defence.
Oerter became a POW. From his words, Ju88 have ditched in the sea due to technical failure before the bombing of the Poti (it was doubtful for interrogators). Jungklaus drowned [why?] with his Ju88 in the sea, the rest of crew reached the land but Beobachter and Bordschütze have drowned during the river crossing.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov

Hello Matti,

This Ju88 was claimed by Poti AA Defence.
Oerter became a POW. From his words, Ju88 have ditched in the sea due to technical failure before the bombing of the Poti (it was doubtful for interrogators). Jungklaus drowned [why?] with his Ju88 in the sea, the rest of crew reached the land but Beobachter and Bordschütze have drowned during the river crossing.

Best regards,
Andrey

Dear Andrey,

Thank you, that's very interesting! Did the Soviet side capture any more prisoners that day? According to the quote in the first post, a source claimed that Thiel also became a POW.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Paul,

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Did the Soviet side capture any more prisoners that day? According to the quote in the first post, a source claimed that Thiel also became a POW.

No. BF from He111H-16 1G+AD was saved by Romanians, the rest of the crew have drowned.

Correction to the Ju88 off Poti: Beobachter and Bordfunker, not BS, have drowned. My typo, sorry.

By the way, results of the Poti raid were poor, mainly due to use of smokescreens. A fuel oil pipeline was damaged. Visual effect was probably impressive but damage was insignificant.

Matti, thank your for the lists 11. and 22.Apr.43. Some details are unknown for me.

1943-04-11, 6./JG 52, Bf 109G-4, 14898 ... Absturz um 10.40 Uhr nach Luftkampf.

"10.40 Uhr" - is it the exact time? What is the source?
Can't find corresponding Soviet claim despite numerous claims during that day. It is strange, commonly were several clams per one real loss.

Best regards,
Andrey