JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

[Peter Cornwell]

Ross,

In this context, you can ignore the III./KG51 reference quoted in BoBT&N. With the benefit of further research over the intervening 30-odd years since its original publication that particular loss is now more accurately documented as follows:

7./KG51 Junkers Ju88A-1 (7072). Badly damaged by fighters during sortie to Portsmouth and crashed in the Channel 10 km north of Le Havre. BS Gefr Robert Pfaff killed, BO Uffz Johannes Schulze and FF Uffz Karl Maurer both missing, Bordfunker believed rescued unhurt. Aircraft 9K+BR 100% write-off.
The body of Robert Pfaff was later recovered by the Seenotdienst off Le Havre.

The claims filed by ‘DOGROSE Yellow 2’ Sgt HAMLYN of No.610 Squadron (DW*Q R6891) following that sortie are as you describe, also that by ‘HYDRO Yellow 1’ Sgt ALLARD of No.85 Squadron (VY*K). Allocating specific losses to these claims is the usual fraught business but it begins to look to me as if the Ju88 encountered by HAMLYN may well have been a singleton and as mentioned in my earlier thread, thus:

5.(F)/122 Junkers Ju88. Believed shot down by fighters during reconnaissance sortie to Canterbury and crashed in the Channel off Boulogne. FF Lt Meinulf Hellermann killed, BO Lt Karl Hurck, BF Uffz Franz Schmidtler, and BM Uffz Erich Kromer all missing. Aircraft 100% write-off.

Furthermore, 9./JG51 did lose one 109 that day which may or may not be relevant:

9./JG51 Messerschmitt Bf109E-1. Shot down in combat with fighters over the Channel. FF Uffz Theodor Kröll killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.

[Nick Beale]

I don't know if this Ultra (CX/JQ/247) is of any help. Please excuse the composite image, a product of uneven lighting and the paragraph running over two pages.

[Chris Goss]

Nick: Not wishing to go off at a tangent and noticing the mention of Brize Norton, does ULTRA say anything about Ju 88/He 111 attacks on 16 Aug 40 again Brize and Benson?
Ross: The fate of the Ju 88 of KG 51 is mentioned in Brothers in Arms

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Chris Goss

... does ULTRA say anything about Ju 88/He 111 attacks on 16 Aug 40 again Brize and Benson?

The only thing I can see that might be relevant is this (CX/JQ/227, T9, paragraph 14):

On 16/8 JG 2 and ZG 2 are to make their fourth attack (2nd day), probable zero hour being 0830 hours. At 1500 hours attack "LUDWIG" is expected to be made, probably by KG 54, JG 2 and possibly ZG 2. Definitive decision still to be communicated. 4 (F) 121 will make weather reconnaissance.

[rafcommands]

Cheers Gents,

Frank - found the combat report now - many thanks for the steer. It has the same words as Foreman and not Collier but with the addition of hand written designation of aiming points.

Ju88 combat timed at 08:25 hrs and Bf109 at 08:30 hrs.

Peter - It's difficult to reconcile the numbers and formation of raid described by both No.610 and No.85 Sqn as being associated with the 5.(F)/122 unless they were either operating in three waves or had attached to the larger bomber formation.

Thanks for the update on KG53 loss - this makes sense for something else in my files, especially with the Ultra from Nick.

So I'm back to a seabed Ju88 wreck with empty external bomb racks in the location described by Hamlyn combat report, showing signs of ditched landing and jettison of rear cockpit canopy.

My short list of possible identities with the exception of Hamlyn's claim all arrived at the sea surface at high speed and sharp angles from height. (more like that suggested in Hamlyn's combat report rather than Colliers description).

So I'm not really much further forward - JG51 was in operation 8 to 10am over S England but no clue as to county eg Kent to Hampshire. I think I can eliminate some KGs from the Ultra leaving the remaining.

Always possible that the wreck is from a unit I've missed so I'll go back over the paper trail.

Regards
Ross

[Nick Beale]

"So I'm back to a seabed Ju88 wreck with empty external bomb racks"

Of possible relevance:

CX/JQ/248 [extracts]

8. Sea Rescue Lifeboat BRUNFISCH put out from OSTEND at 0820 hours on 24/8.

10. An a/c was reported by the Sea Rescue Station at OSTEND to have been shot down early on 24/8 in Square 11232 in area 11.

T7, 11. According to an OSTEND report dated 1000 hours on 24/8 the vessel "BRUNFISCH" was at her position near NIEUPORT, "SUNBOY" was ready for sea but could not put out owing ot weather and GORCH FOCH was lying at the shipyard.

CX/JQ/249 [extract]

2. At 1230 Seenotzentrale BOULOGNE ordered a He 59 and Staffel 2/906 to be in readiness until nightfall. Further position 8774 (centre bottom) on the Naval Grid was to be occupied till further notice; or till nightfall.

CX/JQ/250 [extract]

1. On 24/8 source saw the following report for 24/8 from LN Regt. 12:

II-12 reports at 1455 hrs. a Ju 88 crashed in the sea. Crew baled out. Fliegerkorps 8 informed.

Trupp 12 of 4 - Lehr reports at 1545 hrs. a Bf 109 crashed in the sea. One man baled out.

In the two latter cases Seenotdienst CHERBOURG was informed.

[Frank Olynyk]

Bertrand,
I do not have PRO references for any of Glowacki's combat reports on Aug 24. Just the references in the 501 Sqn ORB, and Aces High.

Sorry.

Frank.