Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944

[kaki3152]

I think the VVS only had one Mosquito and certainly not a recon version.

I'm leaning towards a Pe-2.

[researcher111]

Kaki I don't know how you came to conclussion
regarding the recon version something I can't answer
though as into lend/lease aircrafts sent to the Russians
they implemented various own designs and new applications
which were not seen elsewhere before. Converting it to
recon wouldn't have been at all an issue for them.

The two mentioned Musquitos were VVS ,no British or
US involvement at all and thanks their powerful engines
they managed to escape the Luftwaffe fighters (I am
searching through my files the VVS & Luftwaffe reports
on this )

On same context and as an example ,on two Frantic
missions the escort of 15th AF and 8th Air Force bombers
to Rumania and back to Italy was provided by YAK-9D
fighters Sqd from Poltawa rather than P-51's and P-38's.

Additionally during several Frantic missions VVS Navigators
were alowed to fly onboard US bomers enroute to Rumania.

Eventually the 5th Recon Group out of Italy could have
easily completed the task, due to a 15th AF logistical
issue ,Russian help was opted.

During the landing of one of the two Musquito's landing
gear has colapssed, that's all is known about .

[kaki3152]

Because as far as I know, the only Mosquito the VVS had was a Mosquito Mk IV that was ultimately wrecked in a belly landing. The story is in an old "Flypast" magazine that I have in the archives. The Mosquito was a high value resource which was NOT exported in quantity to the USSR. Especially the PR versions. The Russians did have some Spitfire IV airplanes but NOT any Mosquitos.

[muggs_ro]

This is the Mosquito in question kaki : http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=89126

Unless someone can produce serious evidence of VVS Mosquito recon use over Romania I'm sticking with the Pe-2 assumption too.

[researcher111]

The event was properly documented by both Luftwaffe pilots and VVS, I exclude the possibility the German pilots would confuse PE-2 with Musquito and indicate on their report their inability to catch up with the Musquitos ultimately aborting the persue . In similar the Russians couldn't confuse their own aircraft. Indeed VVS had very few Musquitos in service, but if this makes out of a Musquito a PE-2 that's an other story.

[Graham Boak]

The identification skills of German pilots should not be over-rated. Or, indeed, those of any airforces, for mistakes were common. This can be due to the fleeting nature of aerial combat, not just to shortcomings in the skills or education of the pilots concerned. It is much easier for us, in the comfort of our armchairs with encyclopaedic coverage of the types concerned, than it ever was for the pilots at the time. Despite the twin tails vs single tail, the two types do have a very similar appearance.

As to Russian sources: the problem here is that there is no known record of any other Mosquitos being supplied to the Russians, and as far as I know this is documented from both the UK and Russian sides. Hard evidence of additional deliveries would be very interesting to many people.

[Nick Hector]

Hi there all,

I have this one listed as being one of Prien's Geschwader history claims that were marked with an asterisk as having been 'maybe shot down on a different date', location Mizil airfield...

What is the possibility of it being listed in error...?

Nick

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

Prien, Jagdgeschwader 77, p.2437, notes that Riedel's claim was ~03.08.1944. On page 2113-2114 there is a lengthy first-hand account about the combat from Johann Twietmeyer, from a letter sent to Prien on 4 February 1990. Prien notes: "Datum des Einsatzes ungewiss, möglicherweise 3.8.1944".

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
To clear the deck on the F-5/P-38 for the 3rd August 1944. I have only the following to offer.
440803 42-67380 F-5B 7350 CHINA Allen, Arthur H. Jr.
440803 41-7518 P-38F CALIFORNIA Snyder, Charles C.
440803 42-13199 P-38G ITALY Fernow, Melvin L.
440803 43-2422 P-38G ITALY Orders, Kermit R.
440803 43-28770 P-38J ITALY Middleton, Ernest F. Jr.
440803 43-28787 P-38J ITALY Johnson, William E.
440803 44-23405 P-38J CALIFORNIA Higgins, Harry C.
440803 44-23464 P-38J CALIFORNIA Kohlman, Warren C. Jr.
440803 44-23671 P-38J-25 7873 FRANCE Chamberlain, Dennis R. KIA.
440803 44-23674 P-38J FRANCE (Ground Crew).
440803 44-23807 P-38L CALIFORNIA Edesberg, Edward B.
440803 44-23592 P-38J 370FG MIA.
I would be glad if anyone could add to the above list for this date.

As for the Mosquito, I can only offer the following for the 3rd August 1944.
RAF
440803 - Mosquito II - DD749 - 239 Sqn -UK.
440803/04 - Mosquito - 219 Sqn - Friendly fire.
440803/04 - Mosquito NF XIII - 264 Sqn - Damaged by Ju88 and Shot down by Friendly "AA".

And from "The Mighty Eighth War Diary", page 313.
3 August 1944
802RG despatched 3 Mosquitos to scout for Bombers, 2 Mosquitos on WR France and Atlantic.

On this date the 8th AAF Fighter losses were:
P-47D 42-74627 36FG MIA.
P-47D 42-25869 Landing accident.France.Freddie (NMI) Hobrecht
P-47D 42-8647 Landing accident France.Algred (NMI) Pavilonis
P-47D 42-25969 56FG 1Lt. Roach S. Stewart jr KIA MACR 7448.
P-51's were;
44-13934 4Fg Maj. Fonzo D. Smith POW MACR 7453
43-6885 "Texas Terror III" 355FG 2Lt. Gilbert L. Patterson KIA MACR 7426
44-14001 "Hat Jane" 355FG Capt. Robert G. Kurtz POW MACR 7428
43-24824 "Sophia S" 355FG 1Lt. Garlyn G. Hoffman POW MACR 7429
44-13912 355FG 1Lt. Floyd K. Taylor EVD MACR 7612
44-13654 355FG 1Lt John A. Cotter POW MACR 7728
9th AAF losses were:
P-47D 42-75522 406FG 2Lt. Leo C. Pawlukanis KIA MACR 7665.

Alex

[researcher111]

Andrew and Nick

Yes and thank you, this is the report I've mentioned. Accordingly, they ID'ed at aprox
24'000 ft. and below them both RECON Musquitos.They also concluded seeing later on
the crew chute's canopy opening and inability to cope with the other Musquito's speed.

On that day no losses were recorded over Rumania,other than that VVS reported
both aircraft returning safely to their base. A day before 82 GvBAP recorded the loss
of a PE-2 somewhere in Romania as result of AA or A2A activity though at low altitude
and entire crew was KIA. Lt.Riedel was no beginner to all this ,confusing a twin rudder
PE-2 and its performance with a Musquito , that won't fit the picture .

The date was definitely Aug 3,44

An interesting coincidence , Lt.Riddle of 52 FG was shot down on July 31,44 while
escorting bombers(possibly also by JG77) near Bucharest the other Lt.Riedel of JG77
was involved on our Musquito case and of a P-51 on next day during Ops Frantic possibly
out of 4 lost by 52nd FG on Aug 4h.

PS : from June 2 to 19 Sept 1944, 117 photo recon mission were flown from or to
Soviet bases supporting Frantic Joe and Frantic missions. The missions included
33 from Italy, 29 to Italy , 6 from UK and 49 to and from USSR bases.