Hel with KG1 Aircraft Codes 1940

[Tim O.]

Hi all

In the same Flugbuch for Oscar Müller mentioned in another thread, he records flying Heinkel 111s over London on various missions from 9th September 1940 to 16th October 1940. Aircraft flown are coded:
V4+CV
V4+FV
V4+DV
V4+TW

These codes suggest aircraft of 11. and 12. Staffel but all my references say IV. Gruppe KG1 was not formed until 1941. Does anyone know if these codes would have been carried by aircraft of the Erg. u LehrSt./KG1, which was formed in August 1940?

I note I./KG1 was formed from IV./KG152 but I think this happened before this type of coding was used.

Any guidance in untangling this would be gratefully received..

Best wishes
Tim O.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Tim

IV.(Erg)/K.G. 1 was initially formed on August 16th, 1940 as Erg.u.Lehrst./K.G. 1.
Their exact code from that point is not known by me.
This staffel became 11./K.G. 1 on April 10th, 1941.
Source: Bomber units of the Luftwaffe 1933-1945.

An earlier book (Luftwaffe codes, markings and units 1939-45) comes up with this. IV Gruppenstab formed 7-40. Erg Staffel formed 8-40.

Cheers
Stig

[Tim O.]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Tim

IV.(Erg)/K.G. 1 was initially formed on August 16th, 1940 as Erg.u.Lehrst./K.G. 1.
Their exact code from that point is not known by me.
This staffel became 11./K.G. 1 on April 10th, 1941.
Source: Bomber units of the Luftwaffe 1933-1945.

An earlier book (Luftwaffe codes, markings and units 1939-45) comes up with this. IV Gruppenstab formed 7-40. Erg Staffel formed 8-40.

Cheers
Stig

Hi Stig

Thanks for this. I have both those references too but neither quite answers my question about the codes carried in autumn 1940. On page 232, Luftwaffe Codes, Markings and Units 1939-45 (Barry C. Rosch) shows a photo of an He111 carrying code V4+AU and the caption states it is an aircraft of '10./KG1 in Poland during 1939' but on the next page the text states 10. Staffel 'formed 12-40' so I remain confused!

Best wishes
Tim O.

[Larry Hickey]

Tim O.

We've sorted these codes all out in our EoE WG (Eagles over Europe Working Group) research.

Originally these were the codes for I./KG152 during the time of the Polish Campaign of 1939, but by 1940, this unit had been re-designated II./KG1. However, the coding on their a/c was not changed and their a/c retained their old markings and coding. So in 1940 V4+_U would be 4./KG1, V4+_V would be 5./KG1 and V4_W is 6./KG1. The coding goes back to an even earlier pre-war unit. The old insignias for the Staffel of I./KG152 also carried forward as the unit designations changed. This has confounded researchers for many years, and resulted in much erroneous information being published in the past, including in the books by Peter Cornwell going back to the Battle of Britain. In the EoE Project we had to sort this all out and are now satisfied that we have this correctly done. I have many photographic examples of II./KG1 aircraft carrying these codes. Before the Battle of Britain, it got further complicated as planes and crews were further exchanged within this unit, but this is essentially the information as it related to the markings you asked about.

I just ran the code for V4+DV in our EoE Photo Data Base and I do have photos of an He111H carrying this code both before and after it made a FL, apparently during late-June, 1940, or possibly later during the BoB.

Now that the holidays are over, I'm going to PM you as I'd like to work with you further on the materials that you have on the Luftwaffe during 1940, including this Müller FB.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Larry

Very interesting, but just out of curiosity why would I./KG 152 carry such high Staffel ID letters? Surely that was not according to practice either?

Cheers
Stig

[Tim O.]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

Tim O.

We've sorted these codes all out in our EoE WG (Eagles over Europe Working Group) research.

Originally these were the codes for I./KG152 during the time of the Polish Campaign of 1939, but by 1940, this unit had been re-designated II./KG1. However, the coding on their a/c was not changed and their a/c retained their old markings and coding. So in 1940 V4+_U would be 4./KG1, V4+_V would be 5./KG1 and V4_W is 6./KG1. The coding goes back to an even earlier pre-war unit. The old insignias for the Staffel of I./KG152 also carried forward as the unit designations changed. This has confounded researchers for many years, and resulted in much erroneous information being published in the past, including in the books by Peter Cornwell going back to the Battle of Britain. In the EoE Project we had to sort this all out and are now satisfied that we have this correctly done. I have many photographic examples of II./KG1 aircraft carrying these codes. Before the Battle of Britain, it got further complicated as planes and crews were further exchanged within this unit, but this is essentially the information as it related to the markings you asked about.

I just ran the code for V4+DV in our EoE Photo Data Base and I do have photos of an He111H carrying this code both before and after it made a FL, apparently during late-June, 1940, or possibly later during the BoB.

Now that the holidays are over, I'm going to PM you as I'd like to work with you further on the materials that you have on the Luftwaffe during 1940, including this Müller FB.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Hi Larry

This is very helpful and lines up perfectly, as my man was with 5./KG1 for most of the war. He force-landed in V4+DV just after midnight on 17th October 1940 - could your photos relate to that incident? I have some images too in his photo album of a force-landed He111 but the codes are not visible so it would be interesting to compare bullet-patterns and damage to see if they match.

I would be very happy to work with you and the help is much appreciated!

Best wishes
Tim O.

[Larry Hickey]

Stig,

Very good question. This actually relates to the unit that existed before I./KG152, which I can't look up at the moment. But IIRC if you look at the evolution of that unit, I think that you'll find a IV Gruppe in there. So what happened, these IV Gr staffel codes persisted from that original unit, through I./KG152 and forward into II./KG1, and were never changed. Only example of this that I know of, so quite unique and rather strange, but that's what apparently happened. This has thrown everyone a curve ball that ever tried to sort this out.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Larry Hickey]

Tim,

Your photos are a definite possibility of being the same a/c as mine, as mine aren't securely dated. We'll get together on this as soon as I can get to it. I did receive your direct email message yesterday. In the meantime, I think that the only FB you mentioned in that email for which I don't have a copy is Müller, so I'd very much appreciate a copy at your convenience. I've spent a lot of time trying to sort out the problems with II./KG1, and think that I'm just about there. This has been a very complicated path to getting photos for reliable profile packages for that unit, especially 5 Staffel.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Tim O.]

Hi Larry

Oberleutnant Müller provided us with an album full of photos. There are captions against quite a few personalities, which might prove useful. There are lots of photos of aircraft but only a few are prior to Russia. Here are a couple of images I particularly like.

I will send copies of the Flugbuch pages for 1940 by e-mail.

Best wishes
Tim O.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks again Larry

Very interesting indeed. No wonder I never heard about it. Perhaps just as well I am no good at baseball....

Cheers
Stig