eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??

[sidney]

Post No.39 refers.

Andreas, I find your post little bit hard to follow.

Firstly, loss of WNr 8198. Here you are saying: "...this aircraft is listed as being lost 60% by Stab/JG 27 on June 18th 1941 - but it is also noted as lost 100% on June 25th 1941 - one of these must be erroneous. II./JG 52 had Bf 109F's on strength according to their strength returns at that time - Stab/JG 27 did not - I know which loss I have marked as dubious with regards to validity."

Perhaps you meant to say the following: ... this aircraft is listed as being lost 60% by Stab/JG 27 on June 18th 1941 - but it is also noted as lost 100% on June 25th 1941 by II./JG 52 ...

Secondly, loss of WNr 9694. The first reference to this loss as Bf 109 F-2 came from yourself in this very thread in Post No.11. Now, you are saying that it might have been the Bf 109 E-7. So, which one is it then? If the W.Nr. was correct, there should be no ambiguity on the Bf 109 model.

I feel that you might be upset about this, although I see no particular reason for it.

I wish to take this opportunity to apologize to Ralph Zimmer, whose findings, now disputed, I posted. Although this was done with his prior consent, in order to avoid disputes such as this unfortunate one, I will refrain from posting other researchers' findings, even though with the full reference as to source being given in good faith.

I trust that the above clarifies the matter.

Sinisa

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

No - they did not have Bf 109F-4s at strength - ... yet that Stab/JG 27 had Bf 109Fs on strength prior to their conversion at Döberitz.

Regards,
Andreas B

Without talking about obvious wrong entries; delibarate wrong entries in order to use them as "markers" to "protect" an original work from plagiat !!!!
We are adults and not blind too....

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Can't someone call that guy and ask if he can take a photo from inside his yard???

Regards,
Andreas B

Dear Andreas,

As pointed by Rasmussen this Grodino can't be since it's situated far East from Moscow ...
But why not after all; If any remote chance to get this plane in this area why not trying but very, very, doubtful.
However, it's amazing to find there the same houses configuration AND the same tree configuration at the same distance from constructions, same place and so on. So why not after all??

I did put that Google Street photo to insist on the fact there are more than 60 Grodino ... not an easy task!

Regards, Franck.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hello, Sidney

I am not upset at all, but as I regard this forum as a place were we are allowed to educate or help each others with regards to research practice in addition to just listing 'facts'.

I know that access to original documentation of the period is limited for many, if not unobtainable, and that one then has to rely on published works to follow this interest. But we have to be critical towards all sources - both published and original - in order to bring the research forward.

Please do not read this as criticism - maybe a friendly nudge towards working with original source material which can be very rewarding!


The bottom line here being that both of these WNr seem to have dubious loss record entries - and we should see if it is possible to get them right

[sidney]

Hello Andreas,

I have no problem with what you are saying. This is the place where I primarily come to learn and exchange my thoughts.

However, apart from the aforementioned W.Nr. duplication, I would take this opportunity to dispute, or at least to mark as dubious or in need of further research at very least, the Bf 109F-4 WNr. 8419 Stab/JG 52 loss of 8 January 1942.

The series of photographs as presented here and on the LEMB hardly indicate that the aircraft was lost in the middle of one of the worst winters on the record. It is much more likely that the aforementioned 100% loss of W.Nr. 8419 (that is, providing that the W.Nr. was entered correctly in the original document in the first place) of 8 January 1942 was the second, and final loss of its aircraft, while what we witnessed on the photos was its first (and apparently recoverable) loss of autumn 1941.

Regards,
Sinisa

[Jim P.]

Gotta agree with Andreas on this one. The surviving loss records identify WNr. 8419 as being lost with Munz as the pilot. And a good clear print of at least one of the photos clearly show this machine to be Bf 109F-4 WNr. 8419. I have at least one loss entry for every 109 from WNr. 8400 through WNr. 8505. WNr. 8419 is reported once - for the Munz incident as a 100% loss. The first loss with a combat unit for machines in this WNr. series shows up literally at the end of Aug-41 with JG 77. And note in the photos that started this discussion that there is snow on the ground and no leaves in the trees, while the photo from David W.'s Falcon site shows the same trees with leaves. To me that would date the initial photos to mid-October 1941 at the earliest, by which time Stab/JG 27 was headed home to re-equip with the Bf 109F-4, then south to the Med. My take? The photos show the machine as found at various times during the late-winter - spring of 1942.

Wouldn't have a pre-war unit badge? As a personal marking, this is in no way unique.

Faking data to foil 'plagiarists'? One would have to be pretty stupid to pull that stunt. Any credibility one would hope to have as a reliable source for information on this forum, or anyplace else for that matter, would be completely shredded to bits. Seriously, would any of you trust any information given by some putz that you knew was 'faking' data?

Agreeing with Andreas again - the evidence, as we know it from original German documentation, clearly records this incident. And note that Mr. Prien, the name everyone always mentions, is not working alone. Along with Mrs. Gerhard Stemmer & Peter Rodeike, this team also includes Mr. Winifried Bock, who I believe is the historian of the German Fighter Pilot's Assoc. which has been researching this stuff for decades. Until someone can produce something more concrete, such as Munz's FB, everything else is idle speculation.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hello

sidney - I believe the sequence of these photographs to be as shown in the attachment.

I think we can all agree that the available images show the aircraft at the same location.

In the second and third image it is clear that the area is under Russian control - and in the third one can see that the wings have been removed - this aircraft will probably fly no more.

The only questionable thing here is I believe when the first image - the one that was recently offered for auction - was taken. I believe that it was taken in the spring of 1942 and the two others later the same spring.

Now - is it showing a German soldier on the photograph or not? If it is - I believe we are looking at a location where the Germans were briefly - possibly with smaller infantry units only - but not long enough to recover the aircraft or even have time to destroy it.

Other solutions?

Regards,
Andreas B

[sidney]

Post No.46: Thank you for your candid opinion on the discussion held thus far. I thought that we were doing better than just speculating idly. Perhaps not though.

I herewith attach all the instances of the "personal" emblem that I have recorded thus far. These are all from the expired eBay auctions, as collected and filed by Peter D. Evans over many months on the LEMB, save the excerpt from Jet&Prop. If need be, I can translate it from German.

Post No.47: Andreas, I agree that the time when the first image was taken is the key to solving this puzzle. And... the spring of 1942 is certainly a possibility, and, yes, perhaps the German Army briefly recovered some ground lost during the Red Army winter 1941-42 offensive. However, if the soldier on the photo is really a member of, say, recovery team attached to a smaller infantry unit, he is strangely relaxed, and crucially, unarmed. When I have received the photo, I will have it scanned in the highest resolution possible to see whether some more information can be obtained from it.

Regards,
Sinisa

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, again fellows.

I think we should try to pinpoint the location.

As far as I can see from my notes, both Stab/JG 52 and Stab I./JG 52 (the unit Münz were recorded as belonging to when he made the emergency landing), were at Dugino.

I belive this is Dugino in the Smolensk area.

I have also found a small settlement/village about 90 km north-east of Dugino, called Gordino. I think this might be the location - 'Grodino'.

We know that only days after Münz made his emergency landing Stab and Stab I./JG 52 retreated to Smolensk-Nord - which should be about 115 km southwest of Dugino.

Someone should examine pots, pans and wheel barrows in that village... (for some reason the tail wheels of German aircraft tended to end up on wheel barrows here in Norway at least...)

Regards,
Andreas B

[Jim P.]

Sidney/Sinisa - don't take what I said personally, but the documentary evidence does not fit the supposition that this was a Stab/JG 27 machine. Of the personal 'emblems' you posted, only Christiansen's is recognizable. Off the top of my head I can think of two others - Franz Gotz's JG 26 FW 190D with a JG 53 badge and another flieger from JG 27 (I think) who also had a JG 53 badge (I'd have to look for that one). I'm sure if I started looking with that as my target subject I could find others.

As to the location, well, there are innumerable loss reports that will give a location such 'bei Grodino' (for example), but if you can find a corresponding NLV or FB entry for the same loss, the reported location can be 100 km+ from the Gen.Qu. reported location. A lot of these aircraft disappeared into enemy airspace towards a target, but the exact location of the loss is only later pinpointed by finding the wreck or that the pilot or someone from the crew returns. From the Soviet Union, for sorties behind the lines, there are likely as many Gen.Qu. losses reported as 'Ort Unbekannt' (locations unknowns) and (AAAA - XXXX) (missions to or between these locations) as those with specific locations.

I've gone through and recorded into my own database all the Gen.Qu. and Schulen losses, along with numerous NLV reports, various FB and info from other sources, so I would like to think I have some knowledge on the subject.

Again, without some other evidence beyond that which is actually documented, a pinpointed crash site or whatever, we're all just guessing.