14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943

[Alex Smart]

Hi Kaki,


Reported 4th loss for 15th June 1943 was 43-2465 (MACR 20).
Another loss this date was 2Lt. Fredrick W. Browne (14FG)
who was in 43-2466 (MACR 535).

Anyone any further info on the loss of 43-2465 or can provide a copy of the MACR?

Alex

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

Hi Kaki,


Reported 4th loss for 15th June 1943 was 43-2465 (MACR 20).
Another loss this date was 2Lt. Fredrick W. Browne (14FG)
who was in 43-2466 (MACR 535).

Anyone any further info on the loss of 43-2465 or can provide a copy of the MACR?

Alex

Alex: Have you posted this on http://www.armyairforces.com ?

[kaki3152]

Gianandrea,

Ok, I finally saw the second picture of the captured P-38G
(http://1stfighter.org/photos/Misc/P3...0Italians.html
It sure looks like the number on the side of the boom is "24". (Can someone else do a photo shop touchup.?)
My hypothesis is that this is a P38G from the 48th FS,14th FG.

Facts: Only the 14th Fg used a numerical system at this time. The 1st used a alphabetic system (eg UN-C, HV-B) changing to a numerical system in February 1944. The 82nd FG always used letters.
The "24" places the P-38 in the 48th FS (1-30 48 FS, 31-60 49 FS, 61-90 37th FS).
In the listing for June 1943 presented by Andrew Arthy,there were two P-38 lost by the 48th FS. Perhaps 2/nd Lt. Frederick Browne lost on June 15th,1943?
Also, on June 5th ,1943 P-38s attacked Capoterra A/F in Sardiania. Lt. Edward Shaw 27th FS, was POW on June 5,1943. However, the P-38 in my eye sure looks like a 48 FS,14th FG P-38.

Comments?

[Gianandrea Bussi]

Carlos,
I've examined with a lens the picture from the original negative, I've also scanned it with higher resolution but no number is visible.
In the same picture posted in the 1st FG website (it's a detail of a copy of the very same picture, copy that I've sent to Gian Piero Manca, alias "Figghiuzzo") the number disappear if you click onto it and see it enlarged.
So, I think that the number is likely the result of the way the picture has been copied and scanned.
Therefore if only a two digit number was written on the boom, why italian painters should have cancelled it in such a way like an L or U were cancelled too?
The P-38 landed at Capoterra on 12 june (according to another source, 13 june): non MACR, no losses reports in these days.
So, it's not possible that the date was 5 june. According to italian source, the two P-38 lost that day after a dive bombing of the Cagliari Monserrato airport, one of them was POW, crashed in the sea.
2nd Lt F. Browne was killed/missing on 15 june during a mission over Sicily (his name is in the Tablets of missing in the Sicily-Rome American Cemetery at Nettuno, Italy), so he can not be the pilot who landed at Capoterr.
On 15 june another P-38 pilot was taken POW according to "Adorimini" the history of 82nd FG: Lt. Richard F. Kenney. But this happened during a strafe mission in Sicily.
Or there is a mistake and he was over Sardinia?

Gianandrea

[kaki3152]

Gianandrea,

The photos of the P-38 show only the area over the radiator on the boom as being overpainted. There is nothing on the radiator flap that shows any sign of overpainting. This is consistent with two numbers being overpainted. The ist FG used a three letter combination,eg HV-B, with the B being painted on the radiator flap. Therefore, if the airplane was a 1st FG plane there would have been an overpainted area on the radiator flap.
It is possible that it was a 82nd FG which used a two letter system at this time. It i spossible the pilot who flew the airplane was killed after being captured and thus did not become a POW.
Still a mystery...
Carlos

[Gianandrea Bussi]

Carlos,
I may be wrong but also the radiator flap -that seems to be almost completely open in the picture - had been overpainted.
By my opinion there were three letters/digits overpainted.

The pilot, according to all the documents I've found, was taken prisonner.
If he wasn't a POW, perhaps there should have been a MACR...

I've checked the POW database searching for 2/Lt Jerry Stidham, POW on 15 june, rescued on 29 july: he is not included in the database. Perhaps that's due to the fact he remained POW for a short time.

But the Capoterra P-38 pilot should have leaved Sardinia after a short time, and probably he wasn't there anymore when the island was occupied in september 1943.
In the Italian Air Force archive I've found a 14 august 1943 document containing a list of six allied airmen (all NCO) flown to the italian mainland: amongst them, a pilot shot down on 2 august 1943. So the stay in Sardinia of the captured airmen was short.
I'll go in march to the It.AF Historical Office and I'll try to find other details about this little mistery.
Regards

Gianandrea

[Rabe Anton]

Gentlemen:

I don't wish to get heavily involved with your research problem, but after reading over the public postings, I do see one consideration that needs to be well understood.

It appears to me that your discussion about the USAAF P-38 loss on 15 June 1943 is based only on the Missing Aircrew Reports (MACRs). You need to remember that the MACR program was not fully implemented until ca. Sept.-Oct. 1943, and that many, many losses were not reported on MACRs before this time. . . . In fact, I would say that it is highly likely that a USAAF loss in the Mediterranean Theatre in June 1943 would NOT have received a MACR. Thus, it seems to me, you may be "playing with a short deck" of evidence. . . .

RA

[Gianandrea Bussi]

Rabe,
thank you for your advice.
Because of the fact I've found some MACR related to losses suffered in MTO
in June 1943, I thougth that that system was accurate.
I think that the only way to solve this little mistery is to found the name of that pilot in italian archive.

Best regards

Gianandrea

[kaki3152]

Rabe/Gianandrea,

Is it possible to identify this airplane through Individual Airplane Cards?
One Website http://1stfighter.org/photos/Misc/P3...0Italians.html identifies the last four digits of the serial number as 2278.
A look at Joe Baugher's list indicates 43-2278 as a P-38G-13(Lo).

Otherwise,trawling the POW database seems the only way to identify this rare bird.

[shooshoobaby]

There are accounts of a P - 38 that landed in Sardinia, 1943. it was used by Italian Pilot Guido Rossi to shoot down several U.S. Bombers until he was shot down while attacking a B - 17. Ditched in MED., survived.
Mike ?????????