1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova

[researcher111]

Egbert

Categorically not ! I repeat there were no Allied activities whatsoever over Romania before
April 4,1944 not even recon flights . If you reffer to Allied activities on March 16,1944
over Yugoslavia that is something I didn't debate nor was something I questioned because
we debate Orsova , Romania .

Regarding Soviet air activities of their AF and Naval Air Fleet near Orsova I rule out because
they were not at all in that area . Regarding the other events concerning Luftwaffe flights
I don't know coze it is not my research area.

So which oil fields of which country you talking about on March 16,44 ? if you meant April 16th
then yes on that date there were such , but the JU-52 crash at Orsova was on March 16,44
right ? So lets return back to your date March 16,44 when the JU-52 crashed at Orsova and
let me conclude like this dated May 10,44 as well due to weather rather enemy fighters .

[egbert]

Alex, if you read the thread carefully you will clearly read that we /I are talking only of 16.4.44, 17.4.44 and 10.5.44. and indeed there were USAAF bombings going on like hell, to include the prominent B24 bombing raid with P38 fighter escort on nearby Turnu Severin airfield and marshalling yards.
Please do not refer to dates before 16 April 1944. There is another thread here on the forum plus 2 eyewitness reports that substantiate my claims!
Also who mentioned Soviet naval and air activities near Orsova-nobody did.
Please stay on topic.

[Larry deZeng]

Researcher111 wrote in part:

I repeat there were no Allied actions whatsoever over Romania before May 4,1944 not even recon flights.

15th AAF began attacking targets in Romania in April 1944:

4 Apr 44: 93 B-17s, 220 B-24s and 119 escort fighters to Bucharest marshalling yards.
5 Apr 44: 94 B-17s, 136 B-24s and 180 escort fighters to Ploesti marshalling yards.
15 Apr 44: 257 B-24s and 149 escort fighters to Bucharest; 137 B-17s to Ploesti.
16 Apr 44: 126 B-24s to Brasov marshalling yards; 151 B-24s to Turnu Severin; 224 escort fighters participated.
21 Apr 44: large force to Bucharest.
24 Apr 44: large force to Bucharest and Ploesti.
etc., etc., etc.

[researcher111]

Matti I am aware of at least 3 cases when a co pilot was on board , though is JU-52's is not my area , then a Q remains open was there an observer on that flight ?

[researcher111]

Egbert

I can't answer speculative questions nor there is any point in going into such , however briefing
on short distances was nothing out of the ordinary , remember the Russians started the Iasi Chisinau
offensive and the Allied the Ploesti and Romania bombings. I have no additional info to help with.

[researcher111]

Larry

There were two messages posted one which contained a typo , wrongly posted msg was deleted .If you would review the correct one , it states April 4,44,
did you check that as well before correcting mine ?

Egbert

I really don't get you ,here is what you posted on the other forum:

1944-04-16, 9./Transport Geschwader 4, Ju 52/3mg8e, WNr. 501325, Bei Toplitz, 9 km westlich Orsowa, am Eisernen Tor, Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %. Crew of 4 and 23 passengers were killed ( you also mentioned JG 54 pax's )

You state in German that JU-52 was shot down during air to air activity 9 Km West of Orsova on 16.4.44 , this is what I am reffering to . If the JU-52 was shot down on that date due air to air activities what are the evidences you are using ?

On 16.April 460 BG bombed Turnul Severin, FG's 31,325,14 provided escorts while 82nd FG failed the randezvous . You mentioned a P-38 involved , that would therefore leave only 14 FG . Sofar still looking for a claim from that group though there are none. I also checked 31st FG history book , no claims on that day.From 82nd FG who missed their randezvous only Rob Griffith claimed a HE-111 location unknown.

I am checking 325th FG history book FG and other records , sofar no claims of a JU-52 , therefore pse. cite your supporting evidences .

[researcher111]

Larry

Since you are interested on the 15th AF Romanian campaigns, in addition to your dates here is an addition , on April 5th 450th BG , 99th BG and 451st BG also bombed Oradea while some assets of 304th Wng aborted due WX ,hope that helps.

[Larry deZeng]

researcher111 -

I must have posted mine just before you corrected yours.

On 16 April, 1st FG and 82d FG each claimed 1 multi-engine a/c in the Orsova - Turnu Severin area. The 1st FG had been on the Brasov mission while 82d FG was on the Belgrade - Nis - Turnu Severn mission. I could not find any details on the claims but, admittedly, I am no fighter expert as my interests lie elsewhere. Perhaps someone else can find them?

L.

[researcher111]

Larry

Thank you but at this point in time I would appreciate supporting evidences as into all such statements , I brought mines and would greatly appreciate
facts such the sources of the claims . None of the history books and additional material I have point out to such details . As into 1st FG there was only
a SM-79 claimed and not on Orsova area and by Lt Gerry while as already mentioned the 82nd claimed a lone HE-111 and not a JU-52 nor at Orsova .
Despite confussions at Allied side in WWII S-79 could have not been confused with JU-52,however some of the Allied pilots confussing the IAR-80 / 81
with Italian fighters is understandable .

[Larry deZeng]

Sure.

Mahoney, Kevin A. Fifteenth Air Force Against the Axis: Combat Missions Over Europe During World War II. Lanham (MD): The Scarecrow Press, Inc., 2013. ISBN: 978-0-8108-8494-6. Hb with laminated cover. 485p. Illus. (a few photos). Maps. Appendices (4). Glossary. Source Notes. Bibliography. Index.

Page 92, last paragraph.

L.