RAF Mustang Escorts

[odybvig]

The attack I am speaking of is on 12 january 1945.
16 Lancaster from 9 Sqn and 16 Lancaster from 617 Sqn all loaded with tall boy bombs made a sortie to the u-boat pens in Bergen. Escorte was by 315 Sqn. On the trip to Bergen the Lanc's where flying in loose gaggle formation and near Bergen tighten up the formation to get more bombers over the target on shorter time. On arrivel on Bergen the 315 Sqn was gone. Nobody saw them. Neither the bomber pilots or the German pilots from 9./JG 5. And they are not mention in any of the documents on the German side. I have talked to pilots on both side and they all tell the same story. No Mustangs.
Three Lancaster was brought down and several had to be scraped after arrivel to their homebase, due to heavy Flak and enemy fighters.
The Polish pilots was not especial popular by the RAF pilots

Best
Olve Dybvig
www.luftwaffe.no

[kjetilk]

From the ORB of 9 sqdn 12. January 1945:

"...After seeing the fighter escort at the concentration we never saw them again, except from one which stood off and watched us near the end of the attacks. One Lanc. seen shot down on fire and go straight down into the sea from 16, 000 ft. The Fw 190's were fireing selv destroying shells."

Not particular popular losing the escort and then attacked by Fw 190's......

Kjetil

[Franek Grabowski]

Yes, I know what is in the ORB, I know what is in ORB of 617 Sqn as well as a couple of other ORBs. There is nothing that supports Olve's words, however. Quite to the contrary, the quote clearly says that they appeared at rendes-vous point and one of them was seen at the end of attacks. So, they were somewhere around but not visible for particular crew.
A few points against:
Squadron flew in heaviest condition for 2,5 months, and it was their time for rotation;
they flew escorts for strike wings and mission to Bergen was exceptional if not unique;
there were no complaints from strike wings and I am awared of quite a few people still appreciating their Polish escorts;
Bomber Command airmen had little experience in tight daylight formations;
there were 11 Mustangs to cover the whole operation, not too much to make a proper escort on a little bomber stream.
Olve, while while this may be an exemplary mission for a lack of coordination, there is nothing that I am awared of, that allows your conclusions. I expect some proofs.

[odybvig]

Proof? Read the ORB's. 315 Sqn was not present over Bergen, as you said they were elsewhere. The german fighters did not saw them either.

Polish 315 pilots not liked by RAF pilots, well depend on who you ask (and how you ask) but my impression is that was not liked that much. They was brave but difficult to work with.

Best
Olve Dybvig
www.luftwaffe.no

[Franek Grabowski]

I have read ORBs of all units participating in the mission. If they were not over Bergen, where do you think they were? Where have you found it was the reason they were replaced?
In regard of liking/disliking I think it was perfectly put by Paul Hamlin in his Coolham Airfield Remembered. It does not change the fact they were proffessionals and good at their job.
Problems with escorts of BC daylight raids occured quite often, obviously they lacked experience. The only unit I am awared of being asked not to escort anymore was 4 FG after their disastrous escort to Norawy.

[SMF144]

I realize this is close to being on topic but ask any member of No.404 Squadron RCAF what they thought of the Poles when escorted on an anti-shipping strike. They loved them and they saved their bacon on several ocassions.

So, "we" really can't paint every Polish Fighter pilot with the same brush due to one incident. I'd be curious to know what the pilots had to say about that operation. Were they called off to investigate something, or what?

Franek, if you can, could you please copy the ORB entries, both the 540 and 541 for the squadron?

Thanks.

Stephen

[Kjetil Aakra]

You are being quite unreasonable here, Franek!

Why it is so hard to admit, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, that your Polish heros not always performed perfectly?? I am fully aware of the great work they did as Strike Wing escorts, that is established beyond doubt, but on January 12th 1945 they failed miserably. That's a fact too!

Olve's evidence is more than good enough, espcially the fact that no Mustangs were seen by JG 5 pilots during the raid in question, to say such a thing!

And your statement that " Bomber Command airmen had little experience in tight daylight formations;" simply does not apply to the Bomber Command Squadrons we're talking about here! 617 and IX. Sqds were the elite of Bomber Command and had flown countless pin-point strike daylight missions, including the mission that sunk Tirpitz. Don't you know that hitting even a battleship with a tallboy requires a lot from the bomber crew, including a steady run-in to the target???

No, lets just say that on this day the Polish escort failed their duty, but also remember that it does not detract from the good work they did on numerous other occations. I see no reason to make the January 12th incident stand as a testimony to their war effort, but there is no need to cover it up either.

Kjetil Aakra

[odybvig]

"If they were not over Bergen, where do you think they were?"
It seems that nobody knows

"Where have you found it was the reason they were replaced"
As I said; one of the reason. That's my conclusion

Olve