Are they aces or not????

[drgondog]

You already know this, but USAF 85 took on the task of actually reviewing all USAAF victory credits and went through each official document, claim to supporting statements to awards and then (theoretically) published only the destroyed and the claimant if there was a witness or gun camera film to support it - I know of several exceptions. For example Joe Lang was KIA on 14 October, 1944 after 'calling for help and claiming two 109's in the fight while being trapped by 10 more'.

So there was some subjectivity that entered the system. Frank did a great service in extending USAF 85 and bring in AVG, Navy/Marine, etc into the fold.

Wayne Jorda, first president of American Fighter Aces Association was removed from the association after USAF 85 came out as well as many others who had 5 or more combined air and ground from 8th AF. Jorda had four confirmed plus a probable, for example.

An aside on the subject of 8th AF policy of counting ground scores same as air victories. I wonder how many KIA/POW were unnecessary because fighter pilots in the 8th wer 'incented' to have a ground score count the same as an air score when the Luftwaffe was rarely seen? I know my father's group had huge losses to flak (2:1 over air combat), including several of it's true aces. Henry Brown, Norm Olson, Bill Cullerton, and my father Bert Marshall( he was rescued to fight another day) were never touched in air to air but got clobbered from German flak.

Look across the board to Gabreski, Goodson, Godfrey, Beeson, Beckham, Gerald Johnson, (even Preddy shot down by flak even if our own). Too many top guys whacked in the weeds.