Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Looks like it may have been 1Lt. Jack Houghton O-542201 - FOD 15 October 1945.
MACR 9193.
Location some 16 miles SW of Budapest.
43-24900 "Hope IV" time on MACR 1210hrs.
Witness 2Lt. Robert R. Caudill statement -

[Alex Smart]

Then again it may have been 2Lt Raymond Henry Mann, O-714483
MACR 9141 time on macr 1205 hrs.
Last known position: 4702N 1954E.
Date of death given as 14th October 44.
Witness Lt Col. Ralph James Watson statement flying low(50 or so feet) hit by flak or other ground fire - so again not shot down by fighter.

Only four P-51's and pilots - 1 POW, Leary; 1 evader Bell; 1 KIA Mann; 1 FOD Houghton.

Other fighters were two P-38's.
As for RAF, again Mosquito, Wellington were both twin motor, and a four motor Liberator.
Tony Woods list for the 14th also had a Russian Aerocobra ( an American a/c ).

Alex

[HGabor]

For the RAF losses on October 13, 14, 1944 in Hungary:

D.H. Mosquito XVI., MM287, 680 PRU: at Orosztony, running in and burned in a haystack
Wellington X., MF469 'X', 40 Sq.: at Veszprémfajsz in the forest
Liberator VI., EW280 'T', 178 Sq.: Újdombóvár, at Alsóleperd-puszta (farm).

The soviet losses on October 14, 1944 in Hungary. All from 5 VA:

La-5FN, 192 IAP, S/N: 39212260 - crashed at airfield after mission
La-5FN, 192 IAP, S/N: 39212958 - dogfight in Sáránd area
IL-2m3, 568 ShAP, S/N: 1870680 - at Szápárfalu
Yak-9D, 85 GvIAP, S/N: 2015384 - at Gyula-SE

(No info on soviet P-39 loss!)
Gabor

[researcher111]

I did not go into detail of an opened or unopened chute which obviously the
Russian pilot was wrong about , circumstances totally understandable
during WWII when lots of similar errors were accounted also to German
Axis and Allied pilots . What I meant is that the Russian story matches the
events described on 332nd FG history books and memoires.

WWII MACR's don't serve as final historical evidence,
as such the Russian story is correct. You can take it or leave it .

PS : Use as reference the incident dated 7.11.44
between Koldunov & wingmen versus Capt King &
wingmen over Yugo. Likewise also this repo filled by
the Russians was correct

[researcher111]

Gabor

The dogfight in Sáránd area eventhough out of context
what was it about ? do you have complete details ?

Thanks in advance

[HGabor]

4 La-5s of 5 VA, 192 IAP were escorting 6 IL-2s into the Sáránd (Hungary) area at 16:40 PM (Moscow time). When leaving the target, 2 Fw 190s attacked the Shturmoviks. A pair of La-5s immediately turned on the Fw 190s when suddenly another 6 Fw 190s joined the battle. La-5FN (S/N.: 39212958, engine no.: 8213717) was hit, ml.lt Федосеев Петр Петрович bailed out of his burning plane. 3 Fw 190s were also reported to be shot down. A second La-5FN crashlanded back at their airfield, probably due to severe combat damages received from the Fw 190s, but the pilot (Galkin) was OK.

Gabor

[Boris Ciglic]

My two cents:

332.FG Mustang does not fit at all into the Shadrin account for simple reason that it crashed some 450 kilometers west of Bela Crkva and in full view of other pilots from the group, at early stage of the mission, en route to the target. I would really like to know how Bell evaded, with the help of Mihailović's Chetniks or Partisans. In mid-October 1944 the Chetniks were in full retreat to Bosnia and nowhere near Bela Crkva. There were some Chetnik units in the area of Cazin (which is in Western Bosnia), but I have many doubts that these were able to organize evasion of allied airmen as they were surrounded by Partisans - which were their main enemies, and Axis - with which they were quite friendly in this area.

When it comes to 325.FG and 52.FG, I could imagine a lone Mustang pilot with plane damaged by flak (Mann), or with engine trouble (Houghton) turning for home over Hungary, straying off course to the east, and reaching Bela Crkva. Remember that there were just a few landmarks for orientation both in Hungary and Vojvodina, which is in Northern Serbia, indeed the Danube would be the best one (and it passes close to the locations of the "last sightings" in Hungary and Bela Crkva).

Another possibility could be the following: US pilots were instructed at the time which parts of Yugoslavia were liberated and it is possible that the lone plane was trying to reach Soviet & Partisan lines south of Belgrade.

Another thing should also be taken into consideration and this it the location of the battle (Bela Crkva) and location of Shadrin's base (Crvena Crkva), and these two are 4 kilometers apart. I assume that the wreck could have been found easily, and possibly the body of the pilot. It is in a flat agricultural area, no hills, no mountains, no deep forests. It would help if we knew if remnants of Mann and Houghton were ever located by US grave search teams after the war, or if there were any reports of crashes in Hungary from local authorities.

[Alex Smart]

2Lt. Raymond Henry Mann O-714483
5th FS, 52nd FG
is at rest at
Lorraine American Cemetery, St. avold, France.

see ABMC link -

http://www.abmc.gov/search-abmc-buri...0#.VVJ0BfCrHtF

[Alex Smart]

1Lt. Jack (NMI) Houghton
O-542201
319th FS, 325th FG
Date of Death : 15-10-1945 ( this is 1 year plus 1 day re A finding of Death or FOD).
He is Memorialized on
The Tablet of the Missing,
Sicily-Rome American Cemetery,
Nettuno, Italy.

http://www.abmc.gov/search-abmc-buri...4#.VVJ3GfCrHtE

He is still missing, see -
http://www.dpaa.mil/OurMissing/World...spx?br=aaf&a=h

Alex

[Alex Smart]

From Tony Wood's lists.

14.10.44 Ltn. Hermann Schleinhege II./JG 54 Airacobra �� 17 811: at 2.300 m. 14.07 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -

Also but not of use here was a claimed Soviet Boston III
14.10.44 Ltn. Peter Kalden 13./JG 51 Boston III �� 13 722: at 3.000 m. 11.14 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 617

Alex